Togetherness

Sekai: Welcome to the Inbetween Machine, the podcast that adds a

touch of excitement to your hybrid lifestyle. Chances are

you're tuning in while doing your morning exercises, waiting

for a train or don't want to sleep just yet. Our goal is

simple: to enhance your hybrid skills. My name is Sakai Makoni,

and I'm mixed black woman. I have my hair out and curly, I'm

wearing a bright pink shirt and dark denim jeans. I'm a cultural

programmer, workshop facilitator, writer and artist.

I'm your host here to explore various aspects of hybrid living

in each episode. Joining me is one of the people who created

The Toolkit For The Inbetween and two special guests, all

sharing insights into the world of hybrid experiences. The

Toolkit For The Inbetween is a website, it's like a creative

toolbox for hybrid events, brought to you by members from

three Dutch cultural institutions. The Hmm, a

platform and laboratory for internet and digital cultures.

affect lab, a research driven creative storytelling studio

focused on an inclusive future. And MU, a hybrid art house with

interdisciplinary exhibitions and innovative education.

Together, they've spent the past two years experimenting to find

ways to make cultural experiences engaging for both in

person and online audiences. You'll find a link to The

Toolkit in the show notes. In today's episode, we're delving

into creating togetherness and deep connection through sensory

embodiment in hybrid gatherings. So grab a cup of tea or coffee,

settle in, and let's explore the fascinating intersection of the

physical and digital in our lives. Welcome to The Inbetween

Machine.

voice over: The in-between

Sekai: When we're recording this, it's a calm January

afternoon and for the first time we've had some small smatterings

of... smattering, spattering... of snow. They've mostly

disappeared, but it's also very bright, which we're thankful

for. I'm in an Amsterdam podcast studio, joined by Toolkit member

Klasien van de Zandschulp. You say it correclty to me.

Klasien: van de Zandschulp

Sekai: Mmhmm. Yes, exactly! An interactive artist creating

hybrid experiences. She is alongside Natalie Dixon, one of

the directors of affect lab. Welcome Klasien. Can you give us

a visual description of yourself?

Klasien: Yes, of course. I am a woman with white skin, short

black, tiny bit greyish hair by now, with a dark blue sweater, and

black pants.

Sekai: Beautiful, thank you. We have two special guests joining

us online from Stockholm in Sweden, Christer Lundahl and

Martina Seitl. Would you be able to give us a visual description

of each of yourselves?

Martina: Yes, yes, of course. So I am a woman I have, it looks

like I'm having quite orange skin but coloured towards the

white spectrum. I have like blonde slightly manipulated hair

with some dark in the middle and blue coloured glasses. Yes.

Sekai: And Christer?

Christer: Yeah, I can describe how I look. I have black

glasses, I have silver white hair with some blue and magenta

purple colours in it and I have... what do you call it... a

shirt with blue stripes on it. Yeah, that's kind of me, maybe.

Sekai: So today's focus themes are togetherness and deep

connection and the ways our bodies and senses can play a

part in hybrid experiences. To look more specifically at these

topics you, Klasien, are going to tell us more about two

specific toolkit experiments. So, The Hmm @ Real Feelings

which took place in MU, and DuoDisco Hybrid. Klasien, can

you give a short description of both toolkit experiments?

Klasien: Yeah, sure. So, The Hmm @ Real Feelings is an

experiment that took place at MU. So, it was an event inside a

gallery space or museum, exhibition space, I must say,

where the exhibition Real Feelings was on. And during the

event or before the event, each on-site visitor at MU was

connected to someone online through an app of their choice,

for instance, Telegram or WhatsApp or Signal. So, every

one was one-on-one linked and before the event, there was a

moment of visiting the exhibition, for example. So, the

people who were physically at the event, on-site, they took

their online match through the exhibition which was a really

interesting experience. I took part in it myself through

Telegram because someone guides you through it, and you can also

discuss the artworks and that made it really interesting

because... You know, it's quite actually, you know, you see it

through a camera phone, but still because someone guides you and

talks about it, it's a really interesting experience to have.

And then also, during the event, you were able to chat with this

person who was there on site. For instance, to ask a question

during the Q&A, or, also when there was a break, you would

go... someone would go to the bar, but then you would go to

your fridge but then the bartender could have a look into

your fridge through the camera... through the camera of

the phone, to give you a suggestion of what to drink, for

example, what to mix. So that was a quite interesting

experiment. And then the second experiment is DuoDisco Hybrid.

DuoDisco Hybrid is a hybrid dance party, created by Distance

Disco together with affect lab. It was based on Distance Disco,

which will send like an online dance party, where you would...

the interface was kind of Zoom-like, but then with all

fresh bright colours. So, everyone would see themselves

and hear a song and see the other people dancing but there's

only one or two person dancing to the same song as you are

dancing to. So, by moving to the tunes and moving to the music,

you can find your match and that's how you score points and

that's also a moment when you are dancing together like big in

the screen. And for the hybrid experiments we did, we had also

a space like a dance floor in a location where multiple people

would go there and they will all use a web app to join the game.

So, there were people online, they were projected on the wall

like really big, there are people dancing in the location

together and they were also, of course, captured by a webcam so

the online people could see them and they could also be matched

with... they're constantly matched with one person online.

So, they also needed to find each other and the first person

to find the person online they were matched with would score

the most points and then the person online would also be

really giant in the space, dancing together with the whole

dance floor of people in the location. So, that was yeah,

quite, they... both of these experiments, were quite some

interesting moments of finding a deep connection with someone

else online with someone on site.

Sekai: I feel like if I was doing that I'd feel really self

conscious. How did people feel like knowing that their face or

body was projected really large on the screen or like dancing in

the space? Like, what do you think self consciousness was

like in that context?

Klasien: Well, it was really interesting because also it's a

bit, in a way, also a bit awkward but also people knew

about it upfront. So, they also started to dress up and you know

the people online, they added a disco ball, a disco light in

their living room. They were really prepared for a dance

party because you know, they really wanted to dance. So, they

were really in it. So yeah, I think if you organise it well

and people know it's a dance event, that you will also be

visible on the dance floor either online or on site, then

you also dress up for it. It's like dressing up for a party but

then it's in your living room.

Sekai: Ah, I love this! Sounds really interesting. So, a big

part of the Toolkit For The Inbetween website consists of

examples of past and more contemporary hybrid events and

projects by artists. For this series, we're highlighting a few

relevant case studies. Let's have a listen.

voice over: For this case study interlude we want to share The

Infinite Conversation by Lundahl & Seitl. During STRP festival

2022, Swedish artists duo Lundahl & Seitl presented the

experience Infinite Conversations, which is a hybrid

event that happened in total darkness. You step into this

space and it's pitch-black. In this space, guided by invisible

hosts, microphones pick up the conversations of on-site

visitors that were broadcast online to the virtual audience.

At the same time, online visitors could also contribute

their voices to the on-site experience. The experience took

the form of a listening and sharing session in the dark and

contributed to a wider infinite number of conversations.

Visitors embarked on a sensory adventure as they passed into a

dark space guided by voices and engaging in profound dialogues.

As one visitor commented: "It's interesting, in silence it feels

like I disappear but on a normal event, I'm present with my body.

This means you become anonymous, it is like I'm only existing

when I'm talking". This innovative approach revolves

around the immersive experience of visitors, shaping the

exhibition space through their embodied voices and

interactions. The work’s fluidity allowed it to adapt to

different environments and shape-shift when placed in

different contexts. By plunging the audience into darkness,

Infinite Conversations moved the focus away from what you see to

other senses like hearing and smell, proprioception, and

thermoception.

Sekai: So, internationally operating artist duo Lundahl &

Seitl have a background in visual arts, choreography, and

performance, and with their immersive solo projects, they

reinterpret exhibitions as interpersonal processes by

movement, matter and time. The visitor's perception is their

prime medium, and they have developed a method or an art

form of triggers comprising staging, choreographed movement,

instructions, and immersive technologies juxtaposed with

material objects, and the human ability to organise perception

into a world. Notions of freedom and autonomy, of what is real,

what is imagined, and what is perceived, negotiated in an

investigation of virtual reality, not as a form of technology but

as an ability or sensibility to adapt to a relationship with

surroundings and others. One of their projects, Infinite

Conversations, is in The Toolkit as a case study. Another more

recent project of Lundahl & Seitl, that is also hybrid in

nature, is Tail of the Hen. Welcome Christer and Martina.

So, first off, it'll be great to hear, Christer and Martina, if

you had any reflections on The Toolkit experiments that Klasien

just described and told us about.

Martina: Yes, definitely. Thank you for describing. I'm

interested in... I have many questions and I think it's

interesting to look at how people were... for example, if

you have any examples, for example, of how people were

finding the connections, whether that had to do with, for

example, if they found... In the movement, if they found a

similar rhythm or if there would be that they were rather

opposing rhythm? Or was there a particular pattern that you kind

of felt made more connection? Or did someone even close their

eyes and still felt the connection? Yeah.

Klasien: Yeah, that's a nice question, thanks. Yeah, so many

people used moves and rhythm, and also because the music was very

diverse, you could see if it was more like a hip-hop song, or

more like a techno style, but also it can be songs with a

specific kind of dance to it, like the Macarena, that's easy

to find. But what was fun is that also someone participating

online was also kind of, you know, people start when you...

It was it's a bit game-like, right? It's dancing in the

game-like environment. People also start to play with the

rules that you set for the game. So, someone was on purpose

dancing in a really different rhythm. It also kind of messed

with the game. Or someone was starting to write words on

little notes, but like hints, not really like the whole song. So

they really liked, still like to join the gameplay, let's say,

but they kind of played with the rules and what they could do, or

some... like once, one time, one person had the song Milkshake,

she grabbed milk from the fridge and started shaking. So, people

are really like, in a humorous way, using the rhythms. And you

asked also about eyes closed... I do not recall that

specifically. Yeah, it is... I mean, it is really needed to

visually see the other person dancing in this particular game

but I do think it can be really interesting to think further

about using more, more senses, like in your work for example,

and also the sense of smell as part of it, or different kinds of

senses. I think that's really interesting to explore further.

Martina: Yeah, I mean not necessarily I guess. I mean,

it's interesting just to ask like a paradox question and

sometimes when you do a work, you know, you kind of get

surprised: Oh, actually people found a way to do something that

is almost... that you wouldn't imagine to work logically and

then actually, it did. I was just kind of curious whether

some people did that but it seems that people connected a

lot through a sense of humour or playfulness and like you said,

breaking the rules, and then of course, the visual need. It

would kind of, it sounds like it would break down without the

visual element to it.

Klasien: Yeah and also in this case, because people really

joined for the dance party and also liked to be on the screen

visible. So yeah, so it's yeah...

Sekai: Christer, did you have any reflections or anything you

wanted to add?

Christer: Yeah, no, I thought that... I agree, kind of what

you were saying, like it kind of makes sense in a way, because

when you're doing this kind of hybridity, it's sort of... it

becomes quite apparent what is not there, sort of, and then I

think you'll find a way to compensate or like to find what

is meaningful in that whatever like, interface, you have to

engage with that person somehow and that doesn't have to be like

a lack or somehow it's like, it's a different thing.

Klasien: I think it's also about imagination in a way and I feel

also that reflects to your work as well. Like, actually, last

night, I tried the app where you are, you know, in front of the

window, and you describe... Well, I think you will talk more

about it but it's also a lot about imagination, like

imagining this person next to you but also the work in the

dark that you imagine, you hear voices but you, you know, you

also imagine so much. I think you can tell a lot more about it, of

course, but I think imagination is also a common thread here.

Sekai: Yeah, so, my main question, Christer and Martina,

would you be able to kind of talk about how you create

togetherness and deep connections as a method within

your work?

Martina: Yes. So in our work, if we look back at it, several

years, we've been using methods of touch. So, maybe not

necessarily always visually. I mean, we have worked with

virtual reality, but we use something called... In the past,

we used something called white out goggles, a pair of goggles,

where you can only perceive light and shadow. And then, so

the visitor would have white out goggles and three dimensional

headphones with sound, three dimensional sound and then they

will, we will work specifically with a performer that's been

trained to connect basically. So, they go through a training

on how to connect with someone they might have never spoken to

by only using the area of the hand and they would also then

embody a cryptographic score by embodying a particular

architecture through only that hand. And because as a performer

you become very, very aware like if you transfer fear into... or

insecurity into the body of the visitor, they will immediately

sense it, as they are in a more vulnerable position than you, if

you're a performer, because the performer can see. So you really

need to almost like, when you're taking the hand of a child, you

need to be really aware like what you communicate

non-verbally, and then that sense... and then as a performer

almost without thinking about it, I think you are really

searching for the connection with that other person. I guess,

you're trying to find trust. Trust and connection is something that

comes together but with both of these things, there are aspects

of... we realised, working with this many, many years, we have

no single recipe of what trust and connection, what it is and

what it can... There's no recipe for it basically. It's something

that we cannot maybe put, always put a name on, because someone

might use the same sort of method and another performer

another method, and then you would not read it, that doesn't

guarantee that there would be a connection from both sides. And

we're often quite wrong about like, for example, as the

performer you might have felt very connected to someone but

they might not have, the visitor might not have felt the same way

at all. So it's kind of interesting as well, that

there's also, the core of this is also something that you

cannot maybe totally grasp or maybe prove. I mean there is

some inspiration like Hartmut Rosa, which is sociologist,

Austrian sociologist, who looks into the concept of resonance

which basically is a way of relating to the world of

listening, adapting and responding rather than

calculating, commanding and controlling. And although he

talks about this, he also says that it's really difficult to

hold on to that sense of connection. Especially if you

try to think about it too much, as well. Yeah.

Christer: It should also be noted in the context that we are

speaking that, what Martina described is... these are artworks

that is shown normally in, you know, a museum, in an Art Center

or, you know, that kind of environment. So it's not hybrid

in that sense but something that is maybe interesting in this

context in terms of hybridity, which is sort of like always...

Sort of dealing with interfaces, or like some kind of delineation

about the surface, or like of the inside/outside, or like

online/offline, or this kind of like, this kind of different

dimensions of things. And I think showing works like ours in

museums is already like a hybridity because you deal with

immersion, the experience within the body. You know, where

everything there happens to you in a way, like someone leads

your hand, there is a binaural sound in your headphones, you

move in a certain way, and everything becomes synthesised

together into a coherent experience. But from the

outside, something entirely different is going on, one would

know where you were, where you were present basically and

that's what I was thinking in terms of like... when I had the

introduction to The Infinite Conversation that the... an

account from a visitor saying that they disappeared when they

didn't speak and I think that maybe that person experiences it

in that way but, of course, if you stop speaking you still have

your... you're standing there, you listen, you have your body

and so on but for others, you disappear. So, there is this

sort of like thing about... in terms of togetherness, it's sort

of like your subjective experience but also then how can

you communicate out to the world. And I think what Martina

said now is, like an example of artworks where you work a lot

with, we work with their subjective experience as the

medium of the artwork, but later works have also been using those

methods for groups. So that we're starting with individuals but

then also having, for example, visitors themselves instead of

performers, they are then... through instructions and

different sort of like choreography, they are the ones

that are also carrying out the performance. So they create, it

could be up to 100 people, for example, doing these kinds of

things.

Sekai: Great. So is a sense of togetherness or even deep

connection between on-site and online audiences or participants

even possible? Like how can we design for this, do you think?

Martina: Yes, I mean, first of all, I think it's important to

kind of really... not take anything for granted. So if you,

for example, have an online presence, like what is actually

an online presence, and how is that integrated? And how is that

part of the story of the event? I mean, sometimes when you have

an online presence, for example, in The Infinite Conversation,

which was mentioned before, it was almost like... I mean,

ideally, it would have been interesting that the online

voices will be heard in the space that you wouldn't know

whether they were there physically or not, but it's

almost in a way like when you have a seat at a spiritual

seance. So for some people, so some people would almost feel

that it gave them like a spiritual aspect of the work, and

it might not for some others, but it's like, there would be an

example of how it would kind of evolve that work further, how we

would like move that into it. And then another thought that

comes into my mind, which is also a challenge, like what if

one of the participating agents are not a human? So, an upcoming

project that we will do together with Southbank Centre call River

Biographies. So what if you are 100 people in the space, but

then you have a remote connection with a river and that

river is being... you can have, you can maybe hear how it

sounds, there might be sensors and then this river is channeled

into the group and the group embodies that information

physically through their body and then transferring that into

another person in the group. So it's also like, how do we sort

of imaginatively work with... how's that river part of the

story, which is remote, but then how do we also transfer that

information among the participants that are physically

on the space? But then, yeah.

Sekai: That's super interesting as well, thinking of using

nature as something that could also be present online or

connected and I think it's really interesting. So with many

of The Toolkit experiments, we noticed that when there's a high

level of feeling connected, it goes hand in hand with some

awkwardness. Does a sense of togetherness perhaps even need

a bit of awkwardness to start with? I wonder, do you

conceptualise beforehand or is awkwardness something you can't

really control? Do you think about awkwardness when you're

creating your work?

Christer: It's interesting. Yeah, to some extent, but it's

also, a lot of it comes up when you test things but I think it's

interesting. Some of our projects like, for example,

Unknown Cloud where people use up technology and they meet up

in a field and they engage with each other in a way that they

actually also lead each other at one point in the place. But

somehow, because of the technology there seems to be

sort of a like... Actually, the awkwardness goes away, in a

sense, because there is a filter between somehow, even though

it's just headphones, and you know, like that they know that

they are part of a sort of an artwork. Then the limit, what

they can agree to do would be much greater in a way than they

would be like just someone that would... if we would have a

workshop with no technology. It's interesting, sometimes

technology could actually bring people either into social

interactions to somehow...

Martina: I would say, I wouldn't say... again, the recipe. I

don't think it's necessarily a negative awkwardness at all. I

think you can be fully connected and feel awkward at the same

time. And then, I don't necessarily think that you have

to go through awkwardness either in order to feel connected but

very often we have observed that the people that have described

it, at least from their... taking their description that if

they... It also, I guess it depends what type of awkwardness

it is but a lot of it has been: I became aware of the way I'm

distrusting myself or others, and then there was some points

where they decided to let some... well, somehow accept that,

and once they accepted that awkwardness, it sort of opened

up into a deeper connection, at least for them. I mean, other

people when we speak about awkwardness, do we then mean, I

guess, lack of friction? I'm not sure that's it. I mean Hartmut

Rosa, the sociologist again, doesn't say that in order to

find resonance, you don't have to necessarily be in harmony but

I guess psychologically, a lot of people do want to get rid of

the analytical voice that we have. You know, that's this

voice that kind of, you know, tells us off for being analytical

to the self and to the other and one way of getting... of kind of

going beyond that is, of course, to go into a more meditative state

or hypnagogic state and that's why we are kind of interested in

these different states, because we also remove, it removes that

sense of awkwardness that might sometimes then be a barrier to

connect. But then again, I'm saying that sometimes we just

have to invite that analytical voice into the context and some

artworks are about... If the artwork is about the analytical

voice and becoming aware, then it's part of the sort of

equation as well, but then, because in our work the artwork

normally also... we could almost argue that the visitor of the

work owns the artwork, therefore it owns their own process, and

its emotion, his or her emotions of it. So, we cannot really, you

know we might expect them to feel blissful but it might be

the total opposite for them or the other way around. It depends

what a human being has been through and it also depends on

the culture. I mean, we traveled a lot with our work and

sometimes something just doesn't work in a particular

culture and then we might adapt it or not adapt depending on the

context and the artwork.

Klasien: I can also definitely relate to that. Also, to add to

it, I think you can also definitely design for different

stages of emotion or maybe awkwardness to also guide the

participants in these different stages. I think that's also what

you do with your work, and also what's in a lot of experiments

in The Toolkit. But therefore, yeah, I also actually wanted to

reply to what you said before about the audience becoming a

performer, that I think often, you know, you do not... you can say

that upfront that you become a performer but usually that also

feels a bit: "Oh, I'm not sure, am I performing? Can I do it?"

Well, actually, through experience design or arts, that

you guide an audience in different stages, then suddenly

they become a performer without even realising it. I think

that's what you can design for and that can be still awkward

but you still guide this person to it, because maybe you want it

to be awkward to get that kind of emotion you want as an

artist, or maybe you want it to become less awkward, you can of

course also design for that. But I do... In my experience and

projects I've worked with myself, and hybrid projects, the

awkwardness usually leads to a bigger sense, in the end, a

bigger sense of togetherness. And that people respond: "Oh, I

would never have joined this if I would have known upfront what

was going to happen but now I'm really glad I did because it was

a special experience".

Sekai: That's really good. So, I thought it was interesting

Martina, when you were speaking earlier about when you have the

goggles, and someone is guiding people by their hand. In

relation to that, I kind of thought about, maybe notions of

consent. So, in those types of contexts, how important is

careful onboarding and aftercare in creating deeper

connections and togetherness, to be able to fully appreciate

hybrid experiences?

Martina: Yeah, I mean, that is really important, the way people

are taken into the work, and the way they're taken care of when

coming out of the work. I mean, ideally, we would love to have

much more time and space for doing that. I mean, sometimes

the... I guess the production machine of an artwork gets in

the way and you can have "how many runs can we do in a day?"

and then you are not taking as much time as you want to do for

the preparation and the aftercare. And ideally, we would

prefer to have as much time for the preparation and the

aftercare as the artwork itself, and letting that too become part

of the artwork, but then we might end up with like three

hours of it. So, it's very important. So, the first that

even meets you... when you come to our work, we want that the

person that greets you, and takes care of the practicality is kind

of clear and quite grounded, and safe. They're not kind of even,

I guess, performing but they also kind of inform, like, oh,

what if someone is pregnant? Or when it's, you know, someone is

disabled. So we know kind of what to do in those situations

as well and then it also... If there is something, there is,

for example, a child that is worried and they might do the

work with their parents. We might, this person might then

notify the other people in the group that are performing, so

that we are aware how to take care of the person as well. And

then the aftercare, I guess, sometimes when you also go

through a strong positive experience, it can be equally

isolating, if you don't have anyone to speak about it when

you come home, and then you speak about something, and then

nobody understands you really. So, but then a specific event,

if you have had a difficult experience, then it's important

to first have the group and then... In some of our work as a

performer, you kind of listen to the person because you feel it's

important to them, but some people don't want to speak

afterwards, they want to also be left alone. Yeah, and then of

course, sometimes if you are removing someone's sight, and

they are not used to it, or we use the sense of touch, of

course something's gonna happen, but some people react very

strongly, or people can be scared of dark, which I am

myself. I mean, I have to be taken care of. So depending on

the difficulty, then I mean sometimes the performer has

maybe taken a coffee with a person that had a difficult

time, so you just don't leave them. But that is also because we

had to have a lot of one-on-one performances. Yeah, so if you

are in a larger group, we have to find like a system for that,

or more like a structure around that, but we would like to make

it really important. It's almost, we almost want to make

it into more of a ritual and I think this year is going to be a

lot about looking into different types of rituals. Everything

maybe from shamanism, to religious rituals, to other

types of rituals that we do, a psychological kind of rituals.

Some people also just want to know the information of what's

going to happen and what do I do if I want to get out of the

space? Or like you want to know the rules and the exit kind of

strategy to get out of the space. So, how do we get out of a

dark room? We cannot see, you know, but there has to be like

rules in place for people to feel safe.

Sekai: Great, as we wrap up today's episode, I'd love to

hear a quick takeaway from both of you on togetherness and

connection but before we dive into that, we have another case

study.

voice over: For this case study interlude we want to share The

Gossip by affect lab. In 2021, with the pandemic enforcement,

Zoom fatigue became a serious problem for many people meeting

online. This was a big inspiration for the team behind

The Gossip to create a meaningful connection between

people without using the video stream. Voice has significant

aspects of bandwidth, making it a powerful carrier of emotion

and intimacy. Stripped from the usual bells and whistles of

other forms of digital communication, like emojis or

text messages, the simplicity of the phone call foregrounds the

fact that people's voices can convey a ton of empathy and

understanding and therefore contribute to a more personal

connection. A specific telephone number was shared with both the

online and on-site attendees of an event. At the exact same

moment, both groups called the number from their mobile phones

and the audio experience began. The experience works like a

choose your own adventure style story, where you press a number

to choose how the story continues. At the end of the

experience, you automatically get reconnected with someone

else anonymously and they're asked to share your own story

with the other person on the line. The Gossip celebrates

intimate conversations between strangers. Invoking the nostalgia

of a landline call, it takes the form of an audio experience and

an exchange over the phone between two people who have

never met before. One audience member recalls "The experience

lasted over an hour, I had a true connection with this

person, and we chatted for so long. So this really amazed me

and made my day."

Sekai: So I'd love to hear what the takeaways are from all of

you in terms of togetherness and connection from today's episode.

So Klasien, let's start with you.

Klasien: Yeah, so first of all, I'm actually inspired by what

Martina said last about rituals. I'm also very interested in that

and I also think because it was mentioned also in the topic of

the aftercare and I think, and beforehand. I think rituals are

really interesting to work with and also to see this as part of

the whole experience but also, it reminded me of an experience

I was in myself. That sometimes, for instance in VR, just like

that you are in this virtual world, or just like that indeed

you are in this dark space that you need some kind of ritual or

some kind of ease into it but also, it reminded me of this.

This is also a perfect moment of you as an artist or creator or

maker to connect to your audience and to also understand

better what the experience is, just by having this direct

connection, which could also lead into super interesting

research to develop the artwork further. That was just on top of

my mind because Martina was just talking about it. The other

takeaway I have from this episode, I think is also

inspired by your work about the darkness of the project

discussed. I also think removing like a very specific like sense,

in this case sight for darkness, also is a really interesting

tool actually. Like a design tool, or tool to create an art

like an experience that changes people's mindset and also changes

the way how we are together or we feel togetherness. By

removing a sense, we can also amplify other senses that we use

to feel as a community or feel together or feel like sharing.

So yeah, those were my two takeaways.

Sekai: Brilliant, thank you. Christer, can I go over to you?

What's your takeaway from today that you'd like to share?

Christer: In general, how, I guess, the notion of hybridity

and how different type of practices can be. So like, in

general, I think because our own practice hasn't really been

dealing exclusively with online and for like physical space

connection, but still sort of rather maybe more between sort

of all kinds of different delineations between like inside

and outside, and also social precedence versus more like

psychological precedence, how you can have different states.

And I think any kind of experience, or design experience,

if it is an artwork, or if it is for a design solution for like a

like online spaces or hybrid spaces, it's really about taking

in consideration about what kind of psychological states do I

bring people into, while doing this sort of like decisions in

terms of interfaces, and how I structure an event and so on.

Sekai: Great, thank you. And Martina, for you?

Martina: Yes, I'm taking away a lot. I mean, it's been really

interesting to speak with you and think together with you. And

I think there's a lot of questions that ask a lot and I

would like to understand more and delve like deeper into. One

question is like, might seem very obvious, which is like what

is actually a presence? Because you mentioned that, and before,

about kind of imagining a presence, and then sometimes how,

when we imagine being connected to someone, how different does

it feel than if we actually are connected, both of us as well.

And then maybe that if I feel connected to someone, maybe that

is also something that is contagious to that other person.

So then what happens actually, in the body when we feel this

sense of connectedness? For example, when you dance

together? Like how does that feel in the body? How do you

kind of relate to space? How do you kind of, maybe it encourages

you to break the rules, like you feel safe. So you need to be

able to break the rules in a way and that's a sign, maybe, of being

connected. And then sometimes if you're in a physical context,

you might not necessarily feel connected. So I mean, for me,

also being autistic and hypersensitive to a lot of

stimuli, being in the same physical space can be very

connecting but after some time, I can get overwhelmed. So

actually, when corona came, I could presume, I felt the

connection, I could maintain a sense of connection... at least

from my side, much, much longer. But there's a lot of

interesting, I think topics to... It is incredible, in a way

and it might sound obvious that we can transcend space and still

feel connected. I mean, we can sometimes even feel connected to

a voice that is recorded, even though it doesn't respond to us

live, which I guess contradicts what I said about listening,

responding and adapting, but I guess I'm just questioning the

presence. What is really presence and what is really

absence? I mean, I'm going on for long now, but when in our work,

when you being blindfolded for example, you have the hand of

the guy and then you have not. And in the work, the most

important aspect is actually when you don't feel the hand

because then you sort of... some people say they still have the

sense of presence around them but they... Because they don't

know where the guide is, it kind of dilutes itself into some sort

of ghost-feel that they feel almost like a 360 awareness of presence,

even though realistically of course, that's not the case.

Sometimes the absence can give space to the presence as well if

you know what I mean.

Yeah and that's, I think, also where the imagination starts. So

this all comes together.

Sekai: Beautiful. Well thank you for your presence today, all of

you, and for sharing your takeaways. So thanks for hanging

out with us on this hybrid ride. You can now continue with full

focus during your morning exercises, hopefully being on

the train by now and finally, feel ready to start dreaming for

real. If you're still vibing with the in-between space, more

episodes of The Inbetween Machine are either already in

your podcast app or on their way. Have you binged all

episodes so far, or want to learn more about the

possibilities, potentialities and pitfalls of our in-between

environment? Then go to toolkitfortheinbetween.com