Sekai: Welcome to the Inbetween Machine, the podcast that adds a
touch of excitement to your hybrid lifestyle. Chances are
you're tuning in while doing your morning exercises, waiting
for a train or don't want to sleep just yet. Our goal is
simple: to enhance your hybrid skills. My name is Sakai Makoni,
and I'm mixed black woman. I have my hair out and curly, I'm
wearing a bright pink shirt and dark denim jeans. I'm a cultural
programmer, workshop facilitator, writer and artist.
I'm your host here to explore various aspects of hybrid living
in each episode. Joining me is one of the people who created
The Toolkit For The Inbetween and two special guests, all
sharing insights into the world of hybrid experiences. The
Toolkit For The Inbetween is a website, it's like a creative
toolbox for hybrid events, brought to you by members from
three Dutch cultural institutions. The Hmm, a
platform and laboratory for internet and digital cultures.
affect lab, a research driven creative storytelling studio
focused on an inclusive future. And MU, a hybrid art house with
interdisciplinary exhibitions and innovative education.
Together, they've spent the past two years experimenting to find
ways to make cultural experiences engaging for both in
person and online audiences. You'll find a link to The
Toolkit in the show notes. In today's episode, we're delving
into creating togetherness and deep connection through sensory
embodiment in hybrid gatherings. So grab a cup of tea or coffee,
settle in, and let's explore the fascinating intersection of the
physical and digital in our lives. Welcome to The Inbetween
Machine.
voice over: The in-between
Sekai: When we're recording this, it's a calm January
afternoon and for the first time we've had some small smatterings
of... smattering, spattering... of snow. They've mostly
disappeared, but it's also very bright, which we're thankful
for. I'm in an Amsterdam podcast studio, joined by Toolkit member
Klasien van de Zandschulp. You say it correclty to me.
Klasien: van de Zandschulp
Sekai: Mmhmm. Yes, exactly! An interactive artist creating
hybrid experiences. She is alongside Natalie Dixon, one of
the directors of affect lab. Welcome Klasien. Can you give us
a visual description of yourself?
Klasien: Yes, of course. I am a woman with white skin, short
black, tiny bit greyish hair by now, with a dark blue sweater, and
black pants.
Sekai: Beautiful, thank you. We have two special guests joining
us online from Stockholm in Sweden, Christer Lundahl and
Martina Seitl. Would you be able to give us a visual description
of each of yourselves?
Martina: Yes, yes, of course. So I am a woman I have, it looks
like I'm having quite orange skin but coloured towards the
white spectrum. I have like blonde slightly manipulated hair
with some dark in the middle and blue coloured glasses. Yes.
Sekai: And Christer?
Christer: Yeah, I can describe how I look. I have black
glasses, I have silver white hair with some blue and magenta
purple colours in it and I have... what do you call it... a
shirt with blue stripes on it. Yeah, that's kind of me, maybe.
Sekai: So today's focus themes are togetherness and deep
connection and the ways our bodies and senses can play a
part in hybrid experiences. To look more specifically at these
topics you, Klasien, are going to tell us more about two
specific toolkit experiments. So, The Hmm @ Real Feelings
which took place in MU, and DuoDisco Hybrid. Klasien, can
you give a short description of both toolkit experiments?
Klasien: Yeah, sure. So, The Hmm @ Real Feelings is an
experiment that took place at MU. So, it was an event inside a
gallery space or museum, exhibition space, I must say,
where the exhibition Real Feelings was on. And during the
event or before the event, each on-site visitor at MU was
connected to someone online through an app of their choice,
for instance, Telegram or WhatsApp or Signal. So, every
one was one-on-one linked and before the event, there was a
moment of visiting the exhibition, for example. So, the
people who were physically at the event, on-site, they took
their online match through the exhibition which was a really
interesting experience. I took part in it myself through
Telegram because someone guides you through it, and you can also
discuss the artworks and that made it really interesting
because... You know, it's quite actually, you know, you see it
through a camera phone, but still because someone guides you and
talks about it, it's a really interesting experience to have.
And then also, during the event, you were able to chat with this
person who was there on site. For instance, to ask a question
during the Q&A, or, also when there was a break, you would
go... someone would go to the bar, but then you would go to
your fridge but then the bartender could have a look into
your fridge through the camera... through the camera of
the phone, to give you a suggestion of what to drink, for
example, what to mix. So that was a quite interesting
experiment. And then the second experiment is DuoDisco Hybrid.
DuoDisco Hybrid is a hybrid dance party, created by Distance
Disco together with affect lab. It was based on Distance Disco,
which will send like an online dance party, where you would...
the interface was kind of Zoom-like, but then with all
fresh bright colours. So, everyone would see themselves
and hear a song and see the other people dancing but there's
only one or two person dancing to the same song as you are
dancing to. So, by moving to the tunes and moving to the music,
you can find your match and that's how you score points and
that's also a moment when you are dancing together like big in
the screen. And for the hybrid experiments we did, we had also
a space like a dance floor in a location where multiple people
would go there and they will all use a web app to join the game.
So, there were people online, they were projected on the wall
like really big, there are people dancing in the location
together and they were also, of course, captured by a webcam so
the online people could see them and they could also be matched
with... they're constantly matched with one person online.
So, they also needed to find each other and the first person
to find the person online they were matched with would score
the most points and then the person online would also be
really giant in the space, dancing together with the whole
dance floor of people in the location. So, that was yeah,
quite, they... both of these experiments, were quite some
interesting moments of finding a deep connection with someone
else online with someone on site.
Sekai: I feel like if I was doing that I'd feel really self
conscious. How did people feel like knowing that their face or
body was projected really large on the screen or like dancing in
the space? Like, what do you think self consciousness was
like in that context?
Klasien: Well, it was really interesting because also it's a
bit, in a way, also a bit awkward but also people knew
about it upfront. So, they also started to dress up and you know
the people online, they added a disco ball, a disco light in
their living room. They were really prepared for a dance
party because you know, they really wanted to dance. So, they
were really in it. So yeah, I think if you organise it well
and people know it's a dance event, that you will also be
visible on the dance floor either online or on site, then
you also dress up for it. It's like dressing up for a party but
then it's in your living room.
Sekai: Ah, I love this! Sounds really interesting. So, a big
part of the Toolkit For The Inbetween website consists of
examples of past and more contemporary hybrid events and
projects by artists. For this series, we're highlighting a few
relevant case studies. Let's have a listen.
voice over: For this case study interlude we want to share The
Infinite Conversation by Lundahl & Seitl. During STRP festival
2022, Swedish artists duo Lundahl & Seitl presented the
experience Infinite Conversations, which is a hybrid
event that happened in total darkness. You step into this
space and it's pitch-black. In this space, guided by invisible
hosts, microphones pick up the conversations of on-site
visitors that were broadcast online to the virtual audience.
At the same time, online visitors could also contribute
their voices to the on-site experience. The experience took
the form of a listening and sharing session in the dark and
contributed to a wider infinite number of conversations.
Visitors embarked on a sensory adventure as they passed into a
dark space guided by voices and engaging in profound dialogues.
As one visitor commented: "It's interesting, in silence it feels
like I disappear but on a normal event, I'm present with my body.
This means you become anonymous, it is like I'm only existing
when I'm talking". This innovative approach revolves
around the immersive experience of visitors, shaping the
exhibition space through their embodied voices and
interactions. The work’s fluidity allowed it to adapt to
different environments and shape-shift when placed in
different contexts. By plunging the audience into darkness,
Infinite Conversations moved the focus away from what you see to
other senses like hearing and smell, proprioception, and
thermoception.
Sekai: So, internationally operating artist duo Lundahl &
Seitl have a background in visual arts, choreography, and
performance, and with their immersive solo projects, they
reinterpret exhibitions as interpersonal processes by
movement, matter and time. The visitor's perception is their
prime medium, and they have developed a method or an art
form of triggers comprising staging, choreographed movement,
instructions, and immersive technologies juxtaposed with
material objects, and the human ability to organise perception
into a world. Notions of freedom and autonomy, of what is real,
what is imagined, and what is perceived, negotiated in an
investigation of virtual reality, not as a form of technology but
as an ability or sensibility to adapt to a relationship with
surroundings and others. One of their projects, Infinite
Conversations, is in The Toolkit as a case study. Another more
recent project of Lundahl & Seitl, that is also hybrid in
nature, is Tail of the Hen. Welcome Christer and Martina.
So, first off, it'll be great to hear, Christer and Martina, if
you had any reflections on The Toolkit experiments that Klasien
just described and told us about.
Martina: Yes, definitely. Thank you for describing. I'm
interested in... I have many questions and I think it's
interesting to look at how people were... for example, if
you have any examples, for example, of how people were
finding the connections, whether that had to do with, for
example, if they found... In the movement, if they found a
similar rhythm or if there would be that they were rather
opposing rhythm? Or was there a particular pattern that you kind
of felt made more connection? Or did someone even close their
eyes and still felt the connection? Yeah.
Klasien: Yeah, that's a nice question, thanks. Yeah, so many
people used moves and rhythm, and also because the music was very
diverse, you could see if it was more like a hip-hop song, or
more like a techno style, but also it can be songs with a
specific kind of dance to it, like the Macarena, that's easy
to find. But what was fun is that also someone participating
online was also kind of, you know, people start when you...
It was it's a bit game-like, right? It's dancing in the
game-like environment. People also start to play with the
rules that you set for the game. So, someone was on purpose
dancing in a really different rhythm. It also kind of messed
with the game. Or someone was starting to write words on
little notes, but like hints, not really like the whole song. So
they really liked, still like to join the gameplay, let's say,
but they kind of played with the rules and what they could do, or
some... like once, one time, one person had the song Milkshake,
she grabbed milk from the fridge and started shaking. So, people
are really like, in a humorous way, using the rhythms. And you
asked also about eyes closed... I do not recall that
specifically. Yeah, it is... I mean, it is really needed to
visually see the other person dancing in this particular game
but I do think it can be really interesting to think further
about using more, more senses, like in your work for example,
and also the sense of smell as part of it, or different kinds of
senses. I think that's really interesting to explore further.
Martina: Yeah, I mean not necessarily I guess. I mean,
it's interesting just to ask like a paradox question and
sometimes when you do a work, you know, you kind of get
surprised: Oh, actually people found a way to do something that
is almost... that you wouldn't imagine to work logically and
then actually, it did. I was just kind of curious whether
some people did that but it seems that people connected a
lot through a sense of humour or playfulness and like you said,
breaking the rules, and then of course, the visual need. It
would kind of, it sounds like it would break down without the
visual element to it.
Klasien: Yeah and also in this case, because people really
joined for the dance party and also liked to be on the screen
visible. So yeah, so it's yeah...
Sekai: Christer, did you have any reflections or anything you
wanted to add?
Christer: Yeah, no, I thought that... I agree, kind of what
you were saying, like it kind of makes sense in a way, because
when you're doing this kind of hybridity, it's sort of... it
becomes quite apparent what is not there, sort of, and then I
think you'll find a way to compensate or like to find what
is meaningful in that whatever like, interface, you have to
engage with that person somehow and that doesn't have to be like
a lack or somehow it's like, it's a different thing.
Klasien: I think it's also about imagination in a way and I feel
also that reflects to your work as well. Like, actually, last
night, I tried the app where you are, you know, in front of the
window, and you describe... Well, I think you will talk more
about it but it's also a lot about imagination, like
imagining this person next to you but also the work in the
dark that you imagine, you hear voices but you, you know, you
also imagine so much. I think you can tell a lot more about it, of
course, but I think imagination is also a common thread here.
Sekai: Yeah, so, my main question, Christer and Martina,
would you be able to kind of talk about how you create
togetherness and deep connections as a method within
your work?
Martina: Yes. So in our work, if we look back at it, several
years, we've been using methods of touch. So, maybe not
necessarily always visually. I mean, we have worked with
virtual reality, but we use something called... In the past,
we used something called white out goggles, a pair of goggles,
where you can only perceive light and shadow. And then, so
the visitor would have white out goggles and three dimensional
headphones with sound, three dimensional sound and then they
will, we will work specifically with a performer that's been
trained to connect basically. So, they go through a training
on how to connect with someone they might have never spoken to
by only using the area of the hand and they would also then
embody a cryptographic score by embodying a particular
architecture through only that hand. And because as a performer
you become very, very aware like if you transfer fear into... or
insecurity into the body of the visitor, they will immediately
sense it, as they are in a more vulnerable position than you, if
you're a performer, because the performer can see. So you really
need to almost like, when you're taking the hand of a child, you
need to be really aware like what you communicate
non-verbally, and then that sense... and then as a performer
almost without thinking about it, I think you are really
searching for the connection with that other person. I guess,
you're trying to find trust. Trust and connection is something that
comes together but with both of these things, there are aspects
of... we realised, working with this many, many years, we have
no single recipe of what trust and connection, what it is and
what it can... There's no recipe for it basically. It's something
that we cannot maybe put, always put a name on, because someone
might use the same sort of method and another performer
another method, and then you would not read it, that doesn't
guarantee that there would be a connection from both sides. And
we're often quite wrong about like, for example, as the
performer you might have felt very connected to someone but
they might not have, the visitor might not have felt the same way
at all. So it's kind of interesting as well, that
there's also, the core of this is also something that you
cannot maybe totally grasp or maybe prove. I mean there is
some inspiration like Hartmut Rosa, which is sociologist,
Austrian sociologist, who looks into the concept of resonance
which basically is a way of relating to the world of
listening, adapting and responding rather than
calculating, commanding and controlling. And although he
talks about this, he also says that it's really difficult to
hold on to that sense of connection. Especially if you
try to think about it too much, as well. Yeah.
Christer: It should also be noted in the context that we are
speaking that, what Martina described is... these are artworks
that is shown normally in, you know, a museum, in an Art Center
or, you know, that kind of environment. So it's not hybrid
in that sense but something that is maybe interesting in this
context in terms of hybridity, which is sort of like always...
Sort of dealing with interfaces, or like some kind of delineation
about the surface, or like of the inside/outside, or like
online/offline, or this kind of like, this kind of different
dimensions of things. And I think showing works like ours in
museums is already like a hybridity because you deal with
immersion, the experience within the body. You know, where
everything there happens to you in a way, like someone leads
your hand, there is a binaural sound in your headphones, you
move in a certain way, and everything becomes synthesised
together into a coherent experience. But from the
outside, something entirely different is going on, one would
know where you were, where you were present basically and
that's what I was thinking in terms of like... when I had the
introduction to The Infinite Conversation that the... an
account from a visitor saying that they disappeared when they
didn't speak and I think that maybe that person experiences it
in that way but, of course, if you stop speaking you still have
your... you're standing there, you listen, you have your body
and so on but for others, you disappear. So, there is this
sort of like thing about... in terms of togetherness, it's sort
of like your subjective experience but also then how can
you communicate out to the world. And I think what Martina
said now is, like an example of artworks where you work a lot
with, we work with their subjective experience as the
medium of the artwork, but later works have also been using those
methods for groups. So that we're starting with individuals but
then also having, for example, visitors themselves instead of
performers, they are then... through instructions and
different sort of like choreography, they are the ones
that are also carrying out the performance. So they create, it
could be up to 100 people, for example, doing these kinds of
things.
Sekai: Great. So is a sense of togetherness or even deep
connection between on-site and online audiences or participants
even possible? Like how can we design for this, do you think?
Martina: Yes, I mean, first of all, I think it's important to
kind of really... not take anything for granted. So if you,
for example, have an online presence, like what is actually
an online presence, and how is that integrated? And how is that
part of the story of the event? I mean, sometimes when you have
an online presence, for example, in The Infinite Conversation,
which was mentioned before, it was almost like... I mean,
ideally, it would have been interesting that the online
voices will be heard in the space that you wouldn't know
whether they were there physically or not, but it's
almost in a way like when you have a seat at a spiritual
seance. So for some people, so some people would almost feel
that it gave them like a spiritual aspect of the work, and
it might not for some others, but it's like, there would be an
example of how it would kind of evolve that work further, how we
would like move that into it. And then another thought that
comes into my mind, which is also a challenge, like what if
one of the participating agents are not a human? So, an upcoming
project that we will do together with Southbank Centre call River
Biographies. So what if you are 100 people in the space, but
then you have a remote connection with a river and that
river is being... you can have, you can maybe hear how it
sounds, there might be sensors and then this river is channeled
into the group and the group embodies that information
physically through their body and then transferring that into
another person in the group. So it's also like, how do we sort
of imaginatively work with... how's that river part of the
story, which is remote, but then how do we also transfer that
information among the participants that are physically
on the space? But then, yeah.
Sekai: That's super interesting as well, thinking of using
nature as something that could also be present online or
connected and I think it's really interesting. So with many
of The Toolkit experiments, we noticed that when there's a high
level of feeling connected, it goes hand in hand with some
awkwardness. Does a sense of togetherness perhaps even need
a bit of awkwardness to start with? I wonder, do you
conceptualise beforehand or is awkwardness something you can't
really control? Do you think about awkwardness when you're
creating your work?
Christer: It's interesting. Yeah, to some extent, but it's
also, a lot of it comes up when you test things but I think it's
interesting. Some of our projects like, for example,
Unknown Cloud where people use up technology and they meet up
in a field and they engage with each other in a way that they
actually also lead each other at one point in the place. But
somehow, because of the technology there seems to be
sort of a like... Actually, the awkwardness goes away, in a
sense, because there is a filter between somehow, even though
it's just headphones, and you know, like that they know that
they are part of a sort of an artwork. Then the limit, what
they can agree to do would be much greater in a way than they
would be like just someone that would... if we would have a
workshop with no technology. It's interesting, sometimes
technology could actually bring people either into social
interactions to somehow...
Martina: I would say, I wouldn't say... again, the recipe. I
don't think it's necessarily a negative awkwardness at all. I
think you can be fully connected and feel awkward at the same
time. And then, I don't necessarily think that you have
to go through awkwardness either in order to feel connected but
very often we have observed that the people that have described
it, at least from their... taking their description that if
they... It also, I guess it depends what type of awkwardness
it is but a lot of it has been: I became aware of the way I'm
distrusting myself or others, and then there was some points
where they decided to let some... well, somehow accept that,
and once they accepted that awkwardness, it sort of opened
up into a deeper connection, at least for them. I mean, other
people when we speak about awkwardness, do we then mean, I
guess, lack of friction? I'm not sure that's it. I mean Hartmut
Rosa, the sociologist again, doesn't say that in order to
find resonance, you don't have to necessarily be in harmony but
I guess psychologically, a lot of people do want to get rid of
the analytical voice that we have. You know, that's this
voice that kind of, you know, tells us off for being analytical
to the self and to the other and one way of getting... of kind of
going beyond that is, of course, to go into a more meditative state
or hypnagogic state and that's why we are kind of interested in
these different states, because we also remove, it removes that
sense of awkwardness that might sometimes then be a barrier to
connect. But then again, I'm saying that sometimes we just
have to invite that analytical voice into the context and some
artworks are about... If the artwork is about the analytical
voice and becoming aware, then it's part of the sort of
equation as well, but then, because in our work the artwork
normally also... we could almost argue that the visitor of the
work owns the artwork, therefore it owns their own process, and
its emotion, his or her emotions of it. So, we cannot really, you
know we might expect them to feel blissful but it might be
the total opposite for them or the other way around. It depends
what a human being has been through and it also depends on
the culture. I mean, we traveled a lot with our work and
sometimes something just doesn't work in a particular
culture and then we might adapt it or not adapt depending on the
context and the artwork.
Klasien: I can also definitely relate to that. Also, to add to
it, I think you can also definitely design for different
stages of emotion or maybe awkwardness to also guide the
participants in these different stages. I think that's also what
you do with your work, and also what's in a lot of experiments
in The Toolkit. But therefore, yeah, I also actually wanted to
reply to what you said before about the audience becoming a
performer, that I think often, you know, you do not... you can say
that upfront that you become a performer but usually that also
feels a bit: "Oh, I'm not sure, am I performing? Can I do it?"
Well, actually, through experience design or arts, that
you guide an audience in different stages, then suddenly
they become a performer without even realising it. I think
that's what you can design for and that can be still awkward
but you still guide this person to it, because maybe you want it
to be awkward to get that kind of emotion you want as an
artist, or maybe you want it to become less awkward, you can of
course also design for that. But I do... In my experience and
projects I've worked with myself, and hybrid projects, the
awkwardness usually leads to a bigger sense, in the end, a
bigger sense of togetherness. And that people respond: "Oh, I
would never have joined this if I would have known upfront what
was going to happen but now I'm really glad I did because it was
a special experience".
Sekai: That's really good. So, I thought it was interesting
Martina, when you were speaking earlier about when you have the
goggles, and someone is guiding people by their hand. In
relation to that, I kind of thought about, maybe notions of
consent. So, in those types of contexts, how important is
careful onboarding and aftercare in creating deeper
connections and togetherness, to be able to fully appreciate
hybrid experiences?
Martina: Yeah, I mean, that is really important, the way people
are taken into the work, and the way they're taken care of when
coming out of the work. I mean, ideally, we would love to have
much more time and space for doing that. I mean, sometimes
the... I guess the production machine of an artwork gets in
the way and you can have "how many runs can we do in a day?"
and then you are not taking as much time as you want to do for
the preparation and the aftercare. And ideally, we would
prefer to have as much time for the preparation and the
aftercare as the artwork itself, and letting that too become part
of the artwork, but then we might end up with like three
hours of it. So, it's very important. So, the first that
even meets you... when you come to our work, we want that the
person that greets you, and takes care of the practicality is kind
of clear and quite grounded, and safe. They're not kind of even,
I guess, performing but they also kind of inform, like, oh,
what if someone is pregnant? Or when it's, you know, someone is
disabled. So we know kind of what to do in those situations
as well and then it also... If there is something, there is,
for example, a child that is worried and they might do the
work with their parents. We might, this person might then
notify the other people in the group that are performing, so
that we are aware how to take care of the person as well. And
then the aftercare, I guess, sometimes when you also go
through a strong positive experience, it can be equally
isolating, if you don't have anyone to speak about it when
you come home, and then you speak about something, and then
nobody understands you really. So, but then a specific event,
if you have had a difficult experience, then it's important
to first have the group and then... In some of our work as a
performer, you kind of listen to the person because you feel it's
important to them, but some people don't want to speak
afterwards, they want to also be left alone. Yeah, and then of
course, sometimes if you are removing someone's sight, and
they are not used to it, or we use the sense of touch, of
course something's gonna happen, but some people react very
strongly, or people can be scared of dark, which I am
myself. I mean, I have to be taken care of. So depending on
the difficulty, then I mean sometimes the performer has
maybe taken a coffee with a person that had a difficult
time, so you just don't leave them. But that is also because we
had to have a lot of one-on-one performances. Yeah, so if you
are in a larger group, we have to find like a system for that,
or more like a structure around that, but we would like to make
it really important. It's almost, we almost want to make
it into more of a ritual and I think this year is going to be a
lot about looking into different types of rituals. Everything
maybe from shamanism, to religious rituals, to other
types of rituals that we do, a psychological kind of rituals.
Some people also just want to know the information of what's
going to happen and what do I do if I want to get out of the
space? Or like you want to know the rules and the exit kind of
strategy to get out of the space. So, how do we get out of a
dark room? We cannot see, you know, but there has to be like
rules in place for people to feel safe.
Sekai: Great, as we wrap up today's episode, I'd love to
hear a quick takeaway from both of you on togetherness and
connection but before we dive into that, we have another case
study.
voice over: For this case study interlude we want to share The
Gossip by affect lab. In 2021, with the pandemic enforcement,
Zoom fatigue became a serious problem for many people meeting
online. This was a big inspiration for the team behind
The Gossip to create a meaningful connection between
people without using the video stream. Voice has significant
aspects of bandwidth, making it a powerful carrier of emotion
and intimacy. Stripped from the usual bells and whistles of
other forms of digital communication, like emojis or
text messages, the simplicity of the phone call foregrounds the
fact that people's voices can convey a ton of empathy and
understanding and therefore contribute to a more personal
connection. A specific telephone number was shared with both the
online and on-site attendees of an event. At the exact same
moment, both groups called the number from their mobile phones
and the audio experience began. The experience works like a
choose your own adventure style story, where you press a number
to choose how the story continues. At the end of the
experience, you automatically get reconnected with someone
else anonymously and they're asked to share your own story
with the other person on the line. The Gossip celebrates
intimate conversations between strangers. Invoking the nostalgia
of a landline call, it takes the form of an audio experience and
an exchange over the phone between two people who have
never met before. One audience member recalls "The experience
lasted over an hour, I had a true connection with this
person, and we chatted for so long. So this really amazed me
and made my day."
Sekai: So I'd love to hear what the takeaways are from all of
you in terms of togetherness and connection from today's episode.
So Klasien, let's start with you.
Klasien: Yeah, so first of all, I'm actually inspired by what
Martina said last about rituals. I'm also very interested in that
and I also think because it was mentioned also in the topic of
the aftercare and I think, and beforehand. I think rituals are
really interesting to work with and also to see this as part of
the whole experience but also, it reminded me of an experience
I was in myself. That sometimes, for instance in VR, just like
that you are in this virtual world, or just like that indeed
you are in this dark space that you need some kind of ritual or
some kind of ease into it but also, it reminded me of this.
This is also a perfect moment of you as an artist or creator or
maker to connect to your audience and to also understand
better what the experience is, just by having this direct
connection, which could also lead into super interesting
research to develop the artwork further. That was just on top of
my mind because Martina was just talking about it. The other
takeaway I have from this episode, I think is also
inspired by your work about the darkness of the project
discussed. I also think removing like a very specific like sense,
in this case sight for darkness, also is a really interesting
tool actually. Like a design tool, or tool to create an art
like an experience that changes people's mindset and also changes
the way how we are together or we feel togetherness. By
removing a sense, we can also amplify other senses that we use
to feel as a community or feel together or feel like sharing.
So yeah, those were my two takeaways.
Sekai: Brilliant, thank you. Christer, can I go over to you?
What's your takeaway from today that you'd like to share?
Christer: In general, how, I guess, the notion of hybridity
and how different type of practices can be. So like, in
general, I think because our own practice hasn't really been
dealing exclusively with online and for like physical space
connection, but still sort of rather maybe more between sort
of all kinds of different delineations between like inside
and outside, and also social precedence versus more like
psychological precedence, how you can have different states.
And I think any kind of experience, or design experience,
if it is an artwork, or if it is for a design solution for like a
like online spaces or hybrid spaces, it's really about taking
in consideration about what kind of psychological states do I
bring people into, while doing this sort of like decisions in
terms of interfaces, and how I structure an event and so on.
Sekai: Great, thank you. And Martina, for you?
Martina: Yes, I'm taking away a lot. I mean, it's been really
interesting to speak with you and think together with you. And
I think there's a lot of questions that ask a lot and I
would like to understand more and delve like deeper into. One
question is like, might seem very obvious, which is like what
is actually a presence? Because you mentioned that, and before,
about kind of imagining a presence, and then sometimes how,
when we imagine being connected to someone, how different does
it feel than if we actually are connected, both of us as well.
And then maybe that if I feel connected to someone, maybe that
is also something that is contagious to that other person.
So then what happens actually, in the body when we feel this
sense of connectedness? For example, when you dance
together? Like how does that feel in the body? How do you
kind of relate to space? How do you kind of, maybe it encourages
you to break the rules, like you feel safe. So you need to be
able to break the rules in a way and that's a sign, maybe, of being
connected. And then sometimes if you're in a physical context,
you might not necessarily feel connected. So I mean, for me,
also being autistic and hypersensitive to a lot of
stimuli, being in the same physical space can be very
connecting but after some time, I can get overwhelmed. So
actually, when corona came, I could presume, I felt the
connection, I could maintain a sense of connection... at least
from my side, much, much longer. But there's a lot of
interesting, I think topics to... It is incredible, in a way
and it might sound obvious that we can transcend space and still
feel connected. I mean, we can sometimes even feel connected to
a voice that is recorded, even though it doesn't respond to us
live, which I guess contradicts what I said about listening,
responding and adapting, but I guess I'm just questioning the
presence. What is really presence and what is really
absence? I mean, I'm going on for long now, but when in our work,
when you being blindfolded for example, you have the hand of
the guy and then you have not. And in the work, the most
important aspect is actually when you don't feel the hand
because then you sort of... some people say they still have the
sense of presence around them but they... Because they don't
know where the guide is, it kind of dilutes itself into some sort
of ghost-feel that they feel almost like a 360 awareness of presence,
even though realistically of course, that's not the case.
Sometimes the absence can give space to the presence as well if
you know what I mean.
Yeah and that's, I think, also where the imagination starts. So
this all comes together.
Sekai: Beautiful. Well thank you for your presence today, all of
you, and for sharing your takeaways. So thanks for hanging
out with us on this hybrid ride. You can now continue with full
focus during your morning exercises, hopefully being on
the train by now and finally, feel ready to start dreaming for
real. If you're still vibing with the in-between space, more
episodes of The Inbetween Machine are either already in
your podcast app or on their way. Have you binged all
episodes so far, or want to learn more about the
possibilities, potentialities and pitfalls of our in-between
environment? Then go to toolkitfortheinbetween.com