Togetherness
S01:E03

Togetherness

Episode description

Togetherness or even deep connection are not a given in hybrid experiences, is one of the lessons learned for Toolkit-member and affect lab founder Klasien van de Zandschulp. Talking to artist duo Martina Seitl & Christer Lundahl about this, she shows togetherness in hybrid settings may feel a bit awkward sometimes. So careful onboarding and aftercare are essential, and it does help to let our senses play a big part.

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0:18

Sekai: Welcome to the Inbetween Machine, the podcast that adds a

0:22

touch of excitement to your hybrid lifestyle. Chances are

0:26

you're tuning in while doing your morning exercises, waiting

0:30

for a train or don't want to sleep just yet. Our goal is

0:34

simple: to enhance your hybrid skills. My name is Sakai Makoni,

0:40

and I'm mixed black woman. I have my hair out and curly, I'm

0:45

wearing a bright pink shirt and dark denim jeans. I'm a cultural

0:50

programmer, workshop facilitator, writer and artist.

0:54

I'm your host here to explore various aspects of hybrid living

0:58

in each episode. Joining me is one of the people who created

1:02

The Toolkit For The Inbetween and two special guests, all

1:06

sharing insights into the world of hybrid experiences. The

1:11

Toolkit For The Inbetween is a website, it's like a creative

1:14

toolbox for hybrid events, brought to you by members from

1:17

three Dutch cultural institutions. The Hmm, a

1:21

platform and laboratory for internet and digital cultures.

1:25

affect lab, a research driven creative storytelling studio

1:29

focused on an inclusive future. And MU, a hybrid art house with

1:35

interdisciplinary exhibitions and innovative education.

1:38

Together, they've spent the past two years experimenting to find

1:42

ways to make cultural experiences engaging for both in

1:46

person and online audiences. You'll find a link to The

1:50

Toolkit in the show notes. In today's episode, we're delving

1:55

into creating togetherness and deep connection through sensory

1:59

embodiment in hybrid gatherings. So grab a cup of tea or coffee,

2:04

settle in, and let's explore the fascinating intersection of the

2:08

physical and digital in our lives. Welcome to The Inbetween

2:13

Machine.

2:16

voice over: The in-between

2:20

Sekai: When we're recording this, it's a calm January

2:23

afternoon and for the first time we've had some small smatterings

2:27

of... smattering, spattering... of snow. They've mostly

2:31

disappeared, but it's also very bright, which we're thankful

2:34

for. I'm in an Amsterdam podcast studio, joined by Toolkit member

2:39

Klasien van de Zandschulp. You say it correclty to me.

2:44

Klasien: van de Zandschulp

2:44

Sekai: Mmhmm. Yes, exactly! An interactive artist creating

2:49

hybrid experiences. She is alongside Natalie Dixon, one of

2:54

the directors of affect lab. Welcome Klasien. Can you give us

2:58

a visual description of yourself?

3:00

Klasien: Yes, of course. I am a woman with white skin, short

3:05

black, tiny bit greyish hair by now, with a dark blue sweater, and

3:14

black pants.

3:16

Sekai: Beautiful, thank you. We have two special guests joining

3:19

us online from Stockholm in Sweden, Christer Lundahl and

3:22

Martina Seitl. Would you be able to give us a visual description

3:26

of each of yourselves?

3:27

Martina: Yes, yes, of course. So I am a woman I have, it looks

3:33

like I'm having quite orange skin but coloured towards the

3:39

white spectrum. I have like blonde slightly manipulated hair

3:46

with some dark in the middle and blue coloured glasses. Yes.

3:53

Sekai: And Christer?

3:55

Christer: Yeah, I can describe how I look. I have black

3:49

glasses, I have silver white hair with some blue and magenta

4:11

purple colours in it and I have... what do you call it... a

4:16

shirt with blue stripes on it. Yeah, that's kind of me, maybe.

4:24

Sekai: So today's focus themes are togetherness and deep

4:28

connection and the ways our bodies and senses can play a

4:32

part in hybrid experiences. To look more specifically at these

4:36

topics you, Klasien, are going to tell us more about two

4:40

specific toolkit experiments. So, The Hmm @ Real Feelings

4:45

which took place in MU, and DuoDisco Hybrid. Klasien, can

4:50

you give a short description of both toolkit experiments?

4:53

Klasien: Yeah, sure. So, The Hmm @ Real Feelings is an

4:55

experiment that took place at MU. So, it was an event inside a

5:02

gallery space or museum, exhibition space, I must say,

5:05

where the exhibition Real Feelings was on. And during the

5:09

event or before the event, each on-site visitor at MU was

5:13

connected to someone online through an app of their choice,

5:17

for instance, Telegram or WhatsApp or Signal. So, every

5:21

one was one-on-one linked and before the event, there was a

5:26

moment of visiting the exhibition, for example. So, the

5:29

people who were physically at the event, on-site, they took

5:33

their online match through the exhibition which was a really

5:37

interesting experience. I took part in it myself through

5:40

Telegram because someone guides you through it, and you can also

5:44

discuss the artworks and that made it really interesting

5:48

because... You know, it's quite actually, you know, you see it

5:51

through a camera phone, but still because someone guides you and

5:54

talks about it, it's a really interesting experience to have.

5:58

And then also, during the event, you were able to chat with this

6:01

person who was there on site. For instance, to ask a question

6:05

during the Q&A, or, also when there was a break, you would

6:09

go... someone would go to the bar, but then you would go to

6:12

your fridge but then the bartender could have a look into

6:16

your fridge through the camera... through the camera of

6:19

the phone, to give you a suggestion of what to drink, for

6:23

example, what to mix. So that was a quite interesting

6:26

experiment. And then the second experiment is DuoDisco Hybrid.

6:31

DuoDisco Hybrid is a hybrid dance party, created by Distance

6:35

Disco together with affect lab. It was based on Distance Disco,

6:39

which will send like an online dance party, where you would...

6:45

the interface was kind of Zoom-like, but then with all

6:48

fresh bright colours. So, everyone would see themselves

6:52

and hear a song and see the other people dancing but there's

6:56

only one or two person dancing to the same song as you are

7:00

dancing to. So, by moving to the tunes and moving to the music,

7:05

you can find your match and that's how you score points and

7:09

that's also a moment when you are dancing together like big in

7:14

the screen. And for the hybrid experiments we did, we had also

7:19

a space like a dance floor in a location where multiple people

7:23

would go there and they will all use a web app to join the game.

7:27

So, there were people online, they were projected on the wall

7:31

like really big, there are people dancing in the location

7:35

together and they were also, of course, captured by a webcam so

7:38

the online people could see them and they could also be matched

7:41

with... they're constantly matched with one person online.

7:44

So, they also needed to find each other and the first person

7:48

to find the person online they were matched with would score

7:52

the most points and then the person online would also be

7:56

really giant in the space, dancing together with the whole

8:00

dance floor of people in the location. So, that was yeah,

8:05

quite, they... both of these experiments, were quite some

8:09

interesting moments of finding a deep connection with someone

8:12

else online with someone on site.

8:15

Sekai: I feel like if I was doing that I'd feel really self

8:17

conscious. How did people feel like knowing that their face or

8:22

body was projected really large on the screen or like dancing in

8:26

the space? Like, what do you think self consciousness was

8:28

like in that context?

8:30

Klasien: Well, it was really interesting because also it's a

8:32

bit, in a way, also a bit awkward but also people knew

8:35

about it upfront. So, they also started to dress up and you know

8:39

the people online, they added a disco ball, a disco light in

8:42

their living room. They were really prepared for a dance

8:45

party because you know, they really wanted to dance. So, they

8:48

were really in it. So yeah, I think if you organise it well

8:51

and people know it's a dance event, that you will also be

8:54

visible on the dance floor either online or on site, then

8:58

you also dress up for it. It's like dressing up for a party but

9:01

then it's in your living room.

9:03

Sekai: Ah, I love this! Sounds really interesting. So, a big

9:07

part of the Toolkit For The Inbetween website consists of

9:11

examples of past and more contemporary hybrid events and

9:14

projects by artists. For this series, we're highlighting a few

9:18

relevant case studies. Let's have a listen.

9:23

voice over: For this case study interlude we want to share The

9:26

Infinite Conversation by Lundahl & Seitl. During STRP festival

9:31

2022, Swedish artists duo Lundahl & Seitl presented the

9:36

experience Infinite Conversations, which is a hybrid

9:41

event that happened in total darkness. You step into this

9:45

space and it's pitch-black. In this space, guided by invisible

9:50

hosts, microphones pick up the conversations of on-site

9:53

visitors that were broadcast online to the virtual audience.

9:58

At the same time, online visitors could also contribute

10:01

their voices to the on-site experience. The experience took

10:06

the form of a listening and sharing session in the dark and

10:09

contributed to a wider infinite number of conversations.

10:13

Visitors embarked on a sensory adventure as they passed into a

10:17

dark space guided by voices and engaging in profound dialogues.

10:23

As one visitor commented: "It's interesting, in silence it feels

10:27

like I disappear but on a normal event, I'm present with my body.

10:33

This means you become anonymous, it is like I'm only existing

10:37

when I'm talking". This innovative approach revolves

10:41

around the immersive experience of visitors, shaping the

10:45

exhibition space through their embodied voices and

10:47

interactions. The work’s fluidity allowed it to adapt to

10:52

different environments and shape-shift when placed in

10:54

different contexts. By plunging the audience into darkness,

10:59

Infinite Conversations moved the focus away from what you see to

11:03

other senses like hearing and smell, proprioception, and

11:07

thermoception.

11:10

Sekai: So, internationally operating artist duo Lundahl &

11:14

Seitl have a background in visual arts, choreography, and

11:19

performance, and with their immersive solo projects, they

11:22

reinterpret exhibitions as interpersonal processes by

11:26

movement, matter and time. The visitor's perception is their

11:30

prime medium, and they have developed a method or an art

11:35

form of triggers comprising staging, choreographed movement,

11:39

instructions, and immersive technologies juxtaposed with

11:43

material objects, and the human ability to organise perception

11:47

into a world. Notions of freedom and autonomy, of what is real,

11:53

what is imagined, and what is perceived, negotiated in an

11:57

investigation of virtual reality, not as a form of technology but

12:03

as an ability or sensibility to adapt to a relationship with

12:07

surroundings and others. One of their projects, Infinite

12:11

Conversations, is in The Toolkit as a case study. Another more

12:15

recent project of Lundahl & Seitl, that is also hybrid in

12:18

nature, is Tail of the Hen. Welcome Christer and Martina.

12:23

So, first off, it'll be great to hear, Christer and Martina, if

12:26

you had any reflections on The Toolkit experiments that Klasien

12:30

just described and told us about.

12:33

Martina: Yes, definitely. Thank you for describing. I'm

12:37

interested in... I have many questions and I think it's

12:41

interesting to look at how people were... for example, if

12:45

you have any examples, for example, of how people were

12:49

finding the connections, whether that had to do with, for

12:53

example, if they found... In the movement, if they found a

12:57

similar rhythm or if there would be that they were rather

13:01

opposing rhythm? Or was there a particular pattern that you kind

13:06

of felt made more connection? Or did someone even close their

13:10

eyes and still felt the connection? Yeah.

13:13

Klasien: Yeah, that's a nice question, thanks. Yeah, so many

13:16

people used moves and rhythm, and also because the music was very

13:21

diverse, you could see if it was more like a hip-hop song, or

13:25

more like a techno style, but also it can be songs with a

13:29

specific kind of dance to it, like the Macarena, that's easy

13:34

to find. But what was fun is that also someone participating

13:38

online was also kind of, you know, people start when you...

13:42

It was it's a bit game-like, right? It's dancing in the

13:46

game-like environment. People also start to play with the

13:50

rules that you set for the game. So, someone was on purpose

13:55

dancing in a really different rhythm. It also kind of messed

13:59

with the game. Or someone was starting to write words on

14:03

little notes, but like hints, not really like the whole song. So

14:08

they really liked, still like to join the gameplay, let's say,

14:12

but they kind of played with the rules and what they could do, or

14:17

some... like once, one time, one person had the song Milkshake,

14:21

she grabbed milk from the fridge and started shaking. So, people

14:26

are really like, in a humorous way, using the rhythms. And you

14:30

asked also about eyes closed... I do not recall that

14:34

specifically. Yeah, it is... I mean, it is really needed to

14:38

visually see the other person dancing in this particular game

14:43

but I do think it can be really interesting to think further

14:47

about using more, more senses, like in your work for example,

14:52

and also the sense of smell as part of it, or different kinds of

14:56

senses. I think that's really interesting to explore further.

15:02

Martina: Yeah, I mean not necessarily I guess. I mean,

15:04

it's interesting just to ask like a paradox question and

15:07

sometimes when you do a work, you know, you kind of get

15:09

surprised: Oh, actually people found a way to do something that

15:13

is almost... that you wouldn't imagine to work logically and

15:17

then actually, it did. I was just kind of curious whether

15:19

some people did that but it seems that people connected a

15:22

lot through a sense of humour or playfulness and like you said,

15:25

breaking the rules, and then of course, the visual need. It

15:28

would kind of, it sounds like it would break down without the

15:32

visual element to it.

15:33

Klasien: Yeah and also in this case, because people really

15:35

joined for the dance party and also liked to be on the screen

15:39

visible. So yeah, so it's yeah...

15:43

Sekai: Christer, did you have any reflections or anything you

15:45

wanted to add?

15:48

Christer: Yeah, no, I thought that... I agree, kind of what

15:53

you were saying, like it kind of makes sense in a way, because

15:56

when you're doing this kind of hybridity, it's sort of... it

16:01

becomes quite apparent what is not there, sort of, and then I

16:05

think you'll find a way to compensate or like to find what

16:09

is meaningful in that whatever like, interface, you have to

16:13

engage with that person somehow and that doesn't have to be like

16:17

a lack or somehow it's like, it's a different thing.

16:20

Klasien: I think it's also about imagination in a way and I feel

16:24

also that reflects to your work as well. Like, actually, last

16:28

night, I tried the app where you are, you know, in front of the

16:33

window, and you describe... Well, I think you will talk more

16:37

about it but it's also a lot about imagination, like

16:41

imagining this person next to you but also the work in the

16:45

dark that you imagine, you hear voices but you, you know, you

16:50

also imagine so much. I think you can tell a lot more about it, of

16:55

course, but I think imagination is also a common thread here.

16:59

Sekai: Yeah, so, my main question, Christer and Martina,

17:03

would you be able to kind of talk about how you create

17:07

togetherness and deep connections as a method within

17:10

your work?

17:13

Martina: Yes. So in our work, if we look back at it, several

17:20

years, we've been using methods of touch. So, maybe not

17:27

necessarily always visually. I mean, we have worked with

17:30

virtual reality, but we use something called... In the past,

17:33

we used something called white out goggles, a pair of goggles,

17:36

where you can only perceive light and shadow. And then, so

17:40

the visitor would have white out goggles and three dimensional

17:43

headphones with sound, three dimensional sound and then they

17:48

will, we will work specifically with a performer that's been

17:51

trained to connect basically. So, they go through a training

17:55

on how to connect with someone they might have never spoken to

17:58

by only using the area of the hand and they would also then

18:02

embody a cryptographic score by embodying a particular

18:05

architecture through only that hand. And because as a performer

18:09

you become very, very aware like if you transfer fear into... or

18:15

insecurity into the body of the visitor, they will immediately

18:19

sense it, as they are in a more vulnerable position than you, if

18:23

you're a performer, because the performer can see. So you really

18:26

need to almost like, when you're taking the hand of a child, you

18:29

need to be really aware like what you communicate

18:32

non-verbally, and then that sense... and then as a performer

18:36

almost without thinking about it, I think you are really

18:39

searching for the connection with that other person. I guess,

18:44

you're trying to find trust. Trust and connection is something that

18:48

comes together but with both of these things, there are aspects

18:51

of... we realised, working with this many, many years, we have

18:54

no single recipe of what trust and connection, what it is and

18:58

what it can... There's no recipe for it basically. It's something

19:03

that we cannot maybe put, always put a name on, because someone

19:05

might use the same sort of method and another performer

19:08

another method, and then you would not read it, that doesn't

19:12

guarantee that there would be a connection from both sides. And

19:15

we're often quite wrong about like, for example, as the

19:18

performer you might have felt very connected to someone but

19:21

they might not have, the visitor might not have felt the same way

19:23

at all. So it's kind of interesting as well, that

19:29

there's also, the core of this is also something that you

19:31

cannot maybe totally grasp or maybe prove. I mean there is

19:35

some inspiration like Hartmut Rosa, which is sociologist,

19:39

Austrian sociologist, who looks into the concept of resonance

19:44

which basically is a way of relating to the world of

19:48

listening, adapting and responding rather than

19:50

calculating, commanding and controlling. And although he

19:53

talks about this, he also says that it's really difficult to

19:57

hold on to that sense of connection. Especially if you

20:00

try to think about it too much, as well. Yeah.

20:05

Christer: It should also be noted in the context that we are

20:07

speaking that, what Martina described is... these are artworks

20:11

that is shown normally in, you know, a museum, in an Art Center

20:14

or, you know, that kind of environment. So it's not hybrid

20:18

in that sense but something that is maybe interesting in this

20:21

context in terms of hybridity, which is sort of like always...

20:27

Sort of dealing with interfaces, or like some kind of delineation

20:32

about the surface, or like of the inside/outside, or like

20:35

online/offline, or this kind of like, this kind of different

20:38

dimensions of things. And I think showing works like ours in

20:42

museums is already like a hybridity because you deal with

20:45

immersion, the experience within the body. You know, where

20:51

everything there happens to you in a way, like someone leads

20:54

your hand, there is a binaural sound in your headphones, you

20:58

move in a certain way, and everything becomes synthesised

21:01

together into a coherent experience. But from the

21:06

outside, something entirely different is going on, one would

21:11

know where you were, where you were present basically and

21:15

that's what I was thinking in terms of like... when I had the

21:18

introduction to The Infinite Conversation that the... an

21:22

account from a visitor saying that they disappeared when they

21:25

didn't speak and I think that maybe that person experiences it

21:31

in that way but, of course, if you stop speaking you still have

21:34

your... you're standing there, you listen, you have your body

21:38

and so on but for others, you disappear. So, there is this

21:42

sort of like thing about... in terms of togetherness, it's sort

21:45

of like your subjective experience but also then how can

21:49

you communicate out to the world. And I think what Martina

21:53

said now is, like an example of artworks where you work a lot

21:56

with, we work with their subjective experience as the

21:59

medium of the artwork, but later works have also been using those

22:04

methods for groups. So that we're starting with individuals but

22:08

then also having, for example, visitors themselves instead of

22:13

performers, they are then... through instructions and

22:17

different sort of like choreography, they are the ones

22:20

that are also carrying out the performance. So they create, it

22:24

could be up to 100 people, for example, doing these kinds of

22:28

things.

22:29

Sekai: Great. So is a sense of togetherness or even deep

22:34

connection between on-site and online audiences or participants

22:39

even possible? Like how can we design for this, do you think?

22:48

Martina: Yes, I mean, first of all, I think it's important to

22:52

kind of really... not take anything for granted. So if you,

22:59

for example, have an online presence, like what is actually

23:03

an online presence, and how is that integrated? And how is that

23:08

part of the story of the event? I mean, sometimes when you have

23:11

an online presence, for example, in The Infinite Conversation,

23:14

which was mentioned before, it was almost like... I mean,

23:19

ideally, it would have been interesting that the online

23:21

voices will be heard in the space that you wouldn't know

23:23

whether they were there physically or not, but it's

23:25

almost in a way like when you have a seat at a spiritual

23:29

seance. So for some people, so some people would almost feel

23:34

that it gave them like a spiritual aspect of the work, and

23:38

it might not for some others, but it's like, there would be an

23:41

example of how it would kind of evolve that work further, how we

23:44

would like move that into it. And then another thought that

23:47

comes into my mind, which is also a challenge, like what if

23:51

one of the participating agents are not a human? So, an upcoming

23:57

project that we will do together with Southbank Centre call River

24:00

Biographies. So what if you are 100 people in the space, but

24:04

then you have a remote connection with a river and that

24:09

river is being... you can have, you can maybe hear how it

24:12

sounds, there might be sensors and then this river is channeled

24:16

into the group and the group embodies that information

24:20

physically through their body and then transferring that into

24:25

another person in the group. So it's also like, how do we sort

24:30

of imaginatively work with... how's that river part of the

24:35

story, which is remote, but then how do we also transfer that

24:38

information among the participants that are physically

24:42

on the space? But then, yeah.

24:45

Sekai: That's super interesting as well, thinking of using

24:47

nature as something that could also be present online or

24:53

connected and I think it's really interesting. So with many

24:58

of The Toolkit experiments, we noticed that when there's a high

25:00

level of feeling connected, it goes hand in hand with some

25:04

awkwardness. Does a sense of togetherness perhaps even need

25:08

a bit of awkwardness to start with? I wonder, do you

25:11

conceptualise beforehand or is awkwardness something you can't

25:16

really control? Do you think about awkwardness when you're

25:19

creating your work?

25:21

Christer: It's interesting. Yeah, to some extent, but it's

25:24

also, a lot of it comes up when you test things but I think it's

25:29

interesting. Some of our projects like, for example,

25:33

Unknown Cloud where people use up technology and they meet up

25:37

in a field and they engage with each other in a way that they

25:42

actually also lead each other at one point in the place. But

25:46

somehow, because of the technology there seems to be

25:50

sort of a like... Actually, the awkwardness goes away, in a

25:55

sense, because there is a filter between somehow, even though

25:59

it's just headphones, and you know, like that they know that

26:03

they are part of a sort of an artwork. Then the limit, what

26:08

they can agree to do would be much greater in a way than they

26:12

would be like just someone that would... if we would have a

26:17

workshop with no technology. It's interesting, sometimes

26:21

technology could actually bring people either into social

26:25

interactions to somehow...

26:27

Martina: I would say, I wouldn't say... again, the recipe. I

26:30

don't think it's necessarily a negative awkwardness at all. I

26:34

think you can be fully connected and feel awkward at the same

26:38

time. And then, I don't necessarily think that you have

26:41

to go through awkwardness either in order to feel connected but

26:45

very often we have observed that the people that have described

26:49

it, at least from their... taking their description that if

26:53

they... It also, I guess it depends what type of awkwardness

26:57

it is but a lot of it has been: I became aware of the way I'm

27:00

distrusting myself or others, and then there was some points

27:04

where they decided to let some... well, somehow accept that,

27:08

and once they accepted that awkwardness, it sort of opened

27:12

up into a deeper connection, at least for them. I mean, other

27:16

people when we speak about awkwardness, do we then mean, I

27:19

guess, lack of friction? I'm not sure that's it. I mean Hartmut

27:23

Rosa, the sociologist again, doesn't say that in order to

27:27

find resonance, you don't have to necessarily be in harmony but

27:31

I guess psychologically, a lot of people do want to get rid of

27:35

the analytical voice that we have. You know, that's this

27:38

voice that kind of, you know, tells us off for being analytical

27:42

to the self and to the other and one way of getting... of kind of

27:46

going beyond that is, of course, to go into a more meditative state

27:50

or hypnagogic state and that's why we are kind of interested in

27:54

these different states, because we also remove, it removes that

27:58

sense of awkwardness that might sometimes then be a barrier to

28:02

connect. But then again, I'm saying that sometimes we just

28:06

have to invite that analytical voice into the context and some

28:10

artworks are about... If the artwork is about the analytical

28:14

voice and becoming aware, then it's part of the sort of

28:17

equation as well, but then, because in our work the artwork

28:21

normally also... we could almost argue that the visitor of the

28:25

work owns the artwork, therefore it owns their own process, and

28:29

its emotion, his or her emotions of it. So, we cannot really, you

28:33

know we might expect them to feel blissful but it might be

28:37

the total opposite for them or the other way around. It depends

28:41

what a human being has been through and it also depends on

28:44

the culture. I mean, we traveled a lot with our work and

28:48

sometimes something just doesn't work in a particular

28:51

culture and then we might adapt it or not adapt depending on the

28:56

context and the artwork.

28:57

Klasien: I can also definitely relate to that. Also, to add to

29:00

it, I think you can also definitely design for different

29:04

stages of emotion or maybe awkwardness to also guide the

29:08

participants in these different stages. I think that's also what

29:12

you do with your work, and also what's in a lot of experiments

29:16

in The Toolkit. But therefore, yeah, I also actually wanted to

29:21

reply to what you said before about the audience becoming a

29:25

performer, that I think often, you know, you do not... you can say

29:29

that upfront that you become a performer but usually that also

29:33

feels a bit: "Oh, I'm not sure, am I performing? Can I do it?"

29:38

Well, actually, through experience design or arts, that

29:41

you guide an audience in different stages, then suddenly

29:45

they become a performer without even realising it. I think

29:49

that's what you can design for and that can be still awkward

29:53

but you still guide this person to it, because maybe you want it

29:58

to be awkward to get that kind of emotion you want as an

30:01

artist, or maybe you want it to become less awkward, you can of

30:06

course also design for that. But I do... In my experience and

30:10

projects I've worked with myself, and hybrid projects, the

30:14

awkwardness usually leads to a bigger sense, in the end, a

30:18

bigger sense of togetherness. And that people respond: "Oh, I

30:22

would never have joined this if I would have known upfront what

30:26

was going to happen but now I'm really glad I did because it was

30:31

a special experience".

30:33

Sekai: That's really good. So, I thought it was interesting

30:38

Martina, when you were speaking earlier about when you have the

30:41

goggles, and someone is guiding people by their hand. In

30:46

relation to that, I kind of thought about, maybe notions of

30:49

consent. So, in those types of contexts, how important is

30:53

careful onboarding and aftercare in creating deeper

30:57

connections and togetherness, to be able to fully appreciate

31:01

hybrid experiences?

31:04

Martina: Yeah, I mean, that is really important, the way people

31:07

are taken into the work, and the way they're taken care of when

31:12

coming out of the work. I mean, ideally, we would love to have

31:17

much more time and space for doing that. I mean, sometimes

31:20

the... I guess the production machine of an artwork gets in

31:24

the way and you can have "how many runs can we do in a day?"

31:26

and then you are not taking as much time as you want to do for

31:31

the preparation and the aftercare. And ideally, we would

31:36

prefer to have as much time for the preparation and the

31:39

aftercare as the artwork itself, and letting that too become part

31:43

of the artwork, but then we might end up with like three

31:46

hours of it. So, it's very important. So, the first that

31:50

even meets you... when you come to our work, we want that the

31:54

person that greets you, and takes care of the practicality is kind

31:59

of clear and quite grounded, and safe. They're not kind of even,

32:04

I guess, performing but they also kind of inform, like, oh,

32:08

what if someone is pregnant? Or when it's, you know, someone is

32:11

disabled. So we know kind of what to do in those situations

32:15

as well and then it also... If there is something, there is,

32:18

for example, a child that is worried and they might do the

32:22

work with their parents. We might, this person might then

32:25

notify the other people in the group that are performing, so

32:30

that we are aware how to take care of the person as well. And

32:34

then the aftercare, I guess, sometimes when you also go

32:36

through a strong positive experience, it can be equally

32:38

isolating, if you don't have anyone to speak about it when

32:42

you come home, and then you speak about something, and then

32:46

nobody understands you really. So, but then a specific event,

32:50

if you have had a difficult experience, then it's important

32:54

to first have the group and then... In some of our work as a

32:58

performer, you kind of listen to the person because you feel it's

33:03

important to them, but some people don't want to speak

33:05

afterwards, they want to also be left alone. Yeah, and then of

33:09

course, sometimes if you are removing someone's sight, and

33:12

they are not used to it, or we use the sense of touch, of

33:15

course something's gonna happen, but some people react very

33:19

strongly, or people can be scared of dark, which I am

33:22

myself. I mean, I have to be taken care of. So depending on

33:31

the difficulty, then I mean sometimes the performer has

33:35

maybe taken a coffee with a person that had a difficult

33:38

time, so you just don't leave them. But that is also because we

33:43

had to have a lot of one-on-one performances. Yeah, so if you

33:46

are in a larger group, we have to find like a system for that,

33:52

or more like a structure around that, but we would like to make

33:55

it really important. It's almost, we almost want to make

33:58

it into more of a ritual and I think this year is going to be a

34:02

lot about looking into different types of rituals. Everything

34:07

maybe from shamanism, to religious rituals, to other

34:11

types of rituals that we do, a psychological kind of rituals.

34:17

Some people also just want to know the information of what's

34:21

going to happen and what do I do if I want to get out of the

34:24

space? Or like you want to know the rules and the exit kind of

34:28

strategy to get out of the space. So, how do we get out of a

34:31

dark room? We cannot see, you know, but there has to be like

34:35

rules in place for people to feel safe.

34:38

Sekai: Great, as we wrap up today's episode, I'd love to

34:42

hear a quick takeaway from both of you on togetherness and

34:45

connection but before we dive into that, we have another case

34:48

study.

34:51

voice over: For this case study interlude we want to share The

34:54

Gossip by affect lab. In 2021, with the pandemic enforcement,

35:00

Zoom fatigue became a serious problem for many people meeting

35:03

online. This was a big inspiration for the team behind

35:07

The Gossip to create a meaningful connection between

35:09

people without using the video stream. Voice has significant

35:14

aspects of bandwidth, making it a powerful carrier of emotion

35:17

and intimacy. Stripped from the usual bells and whistles of

35:21

other forms of digital communication, like emojis or

35:23

text messages, the simplicity of the phone call foregrounds the

35:27

fact that people's voices can convey a ton of empathy and

35:30

understanding and therefore contribute to a more personal

35:33

connection. A specific telephone number was shared with both the

35:37

online and on-site attendees of an event. At the exact same

35:41

moment, both groups called the number from their mobile phones

35:44

and the audio experience began. The experience works like a

35:48

choose your own adventure style story, where you press a number

35:51

to choose how the story continues. At the end of the

35:55

experience, you automatically get reconnected with someone

35:57

else anonymously and they're asked to share your own story

36:01

with the other person on the line. The Gossip celebrates

36:05

intimate conversations between strangers. Invoking the nostalgia

36:10

of a landline call, it takes the form of an audio experience and

36:13

an exchange over the phone between two people who have

36:15

never met before. One audience member recalls "The experience

36:20

lasted over an hour, I had a true connection with this

36:23

person, and we chatted for so long. So this really amazed me

36:26

and made my day."

36:28

Sekai: So I'd love to hear what the takeaways are from all of

36:33

you in terms of togetherness and connection from today's episode.

36:37

So Klasien, let's start with you.

36:40

Klasien: Yeah, so first of all, I'm actually inspired by what

36:43

Martina said last about rituals. I'm also very interested in that

36:48

and I also think because it was mentioned also in the topic of

36:53

the aftercare and I think, and beforehand. I think rituals are

36:58

really interesting to work with and also to see this as part of

37:02

the whole experience but also, it reminded me of an experience

37:06

I was in myself. That sometimes, for instance in VR, just like

37:10

that you are in this virtual world, or just like that indeed

37:13

you are in this dark space that you need some kind of ritual or

37:18

some kind of ease into it but also, it reminded me of this.

37:25

This is also a perfect moment of you as an artist or creator or

37:29

maker to connect to your audience and to also understand

37:32

better what the experience is, just by having this direct

37:37

connection, which could also lead into super interesting

37:40

research to develop the artwork further. That was just on top of

37:44

my mind because Martina was just talking about it. The other

37:48

takeaway I have from this episode, I think is also

37:53

inspired by your work about the darkness of the project

37:58

discussed. I also think removing like a very specific like sense,

38:05

in this case sight for darkness, also is a really interesting

38:09

tool actually. Like a design tool, or tool to create an art

38:14

like an experience that changes people's mindset and also changes

38:20

the way how we are together or we feel togetherness. By

38:24

removing a sense, we can also amplify other senses that we use

38:29

to feel as a community or feel together or feel like sharing.

38:34

So yeah, those were my two takeaways.

38:36

Sekai: Brilliant, thank you. Christer, can I go over to you?

38:40

What's your takeaway from today that you'd like to share?

38:44

Christer: In general, how, I guess, the notion of hybridity

38:51

and how different type of practices can be. So like, in

38:56

general, I think because our own practice hasn't really been

39:02

dealing exclusively with online and for like physical space

39:06

connection, but still sort of rather maybe more between sort

39:15

of all kinds of different delineations between like inside

39:19

and outside, and also social precedence versus more like

39:28

psychological precedence, how you can have different states.

39:32

And I think any kind of experience, or design experience,

39:36

if it is an artwork, or if it is for a design solution for like a

39:42

like online spaces or hybrid spaces, it's really about taking

39:48

in consideration about what kind of psychological states do I

39:54

bring people into, while doing this sort of like decisions in

40:00

terms of interfaces, and how I structure an event and so on.

40:03

Sekai: Great, thank you. And Martina, for you?

40:06

Martina: Yes, I'm taking away a lot. I mean, it's been really

40:09

interesting to speak with you and think together with you. And

40:14

I think there's a lot of questions that ask a lot and I

40:17

would like to understand more and delve like deeper into. One

40:22

question is like, might seem very obvious, which is like what

40:26

is actually a presence? Because you mentioned that, and before,

40:30

about kind of imagining a presence, and then sometimes how,

40:34

when we imagine being connected to someone, how different does

40:38

it feel than if we actually are connected, both of us as well.

40:42

And then maybe that if I feel connected to someone, maybe that

40:47

is also something that is contagious to that other person.

40:51

So then what happens actually, in the body when we feel this

40:55

sense of connectedness? For example, when you dance

40:58

together? Like how does that feel in the body? How do you

41:02

kind of relate to space? How do you kind of, maybe it encourages

41:07

you to break the rules, like you feel safe. So you need to be

41:11

able to break the rules in a way and that's a sign, maybe, of being

41:15

connected. And then sometimes if you're in a physical context,

41:20

you might not necessarily feel connected. So I mean, for me,

41:24

also being autistic and hypersensitive to a lot of

41:27

stimuli, being in the same physical space can be very

41:31

connecting but after some time, I can get overwhelmed. So

41:35

actually, when corona came, I could presume, I felt the

41:38

connection, I could maintain a sense of connection... at least

41:43

from my side, much, much longer. But there's a lot of

41:46

interesting, I think topics to... It is incredible, in a way

41:50

and it might sound obvious that we can transcend space and still

41:55

feel connected. I mean, we can sometimes even feel connected to

41:59

a voice that is recorded, even though it doesn't respond to us

42:03

live, which I guess contradicts what I said about listening,

42:07

responding and adapting, but I guess I'm just questioning the

42:11

presence. What is really presence and what is really

42:15

absence? I mean, I'm going on for long now, but when in our work,

42:19

when you being blindfolded for example, you have the hand of

42:23

the guy and then you have not. And in the work, the most

42:27

important aspect is actually when you don't feel the hand

42:31

because then you sort of... some people say they still have the

42:35

sense of presence around them but they... Because they don't

42:40

know where the guide is, it kind of dilutes itself into some sort

42:44

of ghost-feel that they feel almost like a 360 awareness of presence,

42:48

even though realistically of course, that's not the case.

42:52

Sometimes the absence can give space to the presence as well if

42:56

you know what I mean.

42:58

Yeah and that's, I think, also where the imagination starts. So

43:01

this all comes together.

43:05

Sekai: Beautiful. Well thank you for your presence today, all of

43:08

you, and for sharing your takeaways. So thanks for hanging

43:12

out with us on this hybrid ride. You can now continue with full

43:16

focus during your morning exercises, hopefully being on

43:20

the train by now and finally, feel ready to start dreaming for

43:24

real. If you're still vibing with the in-between space, more

43:28

episodes of The Inbetween Machine are either already in

43:31

your podcast app or on their way. Have you binged all

43:34

episodes so far, or want to learn more about the

43:37

possibilities, potentialities and pitfalls of our in-between

43:42

environment? Then go to toolkitfortheinbetween.com