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Sekai: Welcome to the Inbetween
Machine, the podcast that adds a

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touch of excitement to your
hybrid lifestyle. Chances are

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you're tuning in while doing
your morning exercises, waiting

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for a train or don't want to
sleep just yet. Our goal is

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simple: to enhance your hybrid
skills. My name is Sakai Makoni,

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and I'm mixed black woman. I
have my hair out and curly, I'm

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wearing a bright pink shirt and
dark denim jeans. I'm a cultural

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programmer, workshop
facilitator, writer and artist.

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I'm your host here to explore
various aspects of hybrid living

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in each episode. Joining me is
one of the people who created

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The Toolkit For The Inbetween
and two special guests, all

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sharing insights into the world
of hybrid experiences. The

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Toolkit For The Inbetween is a
website, it's like a creative

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toolbox for hybrid events,
brought to you by members from

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three Dutch cultural
institutions. The Hmm, a

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platform and laboratory for
internet and digital cultures.

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affect lab, a research driven
creative storytelling studio

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focused on an inclusive future.
And MU, a hybrid art house with

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interdisciplinary exhibitions
and innovative education.

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Together, they've spent the past
two years experimenting to find

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ways to make cultural
experiences engaging for both in

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person and online audiences.
You'll find a link to The

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Toolkit in the show notes. In
today's episode, we're delving

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into creating togetherness and
deep connection through sensory

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embodiment in hybrid gatherings.
So grab a cup of tea or coffee,

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settle in, and let's explore the
fascinating intersection of the

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physical and digital in our
lives. Welcome to The Inbetween

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Machine.

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voice over: The in-between

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Sekai: When we're recording
this, it's a calm January

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afternoon and for the first time
we've had some small smatterings

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of... smattering, spattering... 
of snow. They've mostly

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disappeared, but it's also very
bright, which we're thankful

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for. I'm in an Amsterdam podcast
studio, joined by Toolkit member

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Klasien van de Zandschulp. You
say it correclty to me.

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Klasien: van de Zandschulp

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Sekai: Mmhmm. Yes, exactly! An
interactive artist creating

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hybrid experiences. She is
alongside Natalie Dixon, one of

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the directors of affect lab.
Welcome Klasien. Can you give us

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a visual description of
yourself?

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Klasien: Yes, of course. I am a
woman with white skin, short

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black, tiny bit greyish hair by now,
with a dark blue sweater, and

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black pants.

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Sekai: Beautiful, thank you. We
have two special guests joining

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us online from Stockholm in
Sweden, Christer Lundahl and

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Martina Seitl. Would you be able
to give us a visual description

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of each of yourselves?

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Martina: Yes, yes, of course. So
I am a woman I have, it looks

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like I'm having quite orange
skin but coloured towards the

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white spectrum. I have like
blonde slightly manipulated hair

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with some dark in the middle and
blue coloured glasses. Yes.

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Sekai: And Christer?

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Christer: Yeah, I can describe
how I look. I have black

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glasses, I have silver white
hair with some blue and magenta

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purple colours in it and I
have... what do you call it... a

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shirt with blue stripes on it.
Yeah, that's kind of me, maybe.

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Sekai: So today's focus themes
are togetherness and deep

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connection and the ways our
bodies and senses can play a

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part in hybrid experiences. To
look more specifically at these

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topics you, Klasien, are going
to tell us more about two

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specific toolkit experiments.
So, The Hmm @ Real Feelings

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which took place in MU, and
DuoDisco Hybrid. Klasien, can

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you give a short description of
both toolkit experiments?

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Klasien: Yeah, sure. So, The Hmm
@ Real Feelings is an

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experiment that took place at
MU. So, it was an event inside a

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gallery space or museum,
exhibition space, I must say,

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where the exhibition Real
Feelings was on. And during the

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event or before the event, each
on-site visitor at MU was

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connected to someone online
through an app of their choice,

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for instance, Telegram or
WhatsApp or Signal. So, every

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one was one-on-one linked and
before the event, there was a

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moment of visiting the
exhibition, for example. So, the

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people who were physically at
the event, on-site, they took

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their online match through the
exhibition which was a really

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interesting experience. I took
part in it myself through

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Telegram because someone guides
you through it, and you can also

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discuss the artworks and that
made it really interesting

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because... You know, it's quite
actually, you know, you see it

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through a camera phone, but still
because someone guides you and

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talks about it, it's a really
interesting experience to have.

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And then also, during the event,
you were able to chat with this

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person who was there on site.
For instance, to ask a question

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during the Q&A, or, also when
there was a break, you would

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go... someone would go to the
bar, but then you would go to

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your fridge but then the
bartender could have a look into

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your fridge through the
camera... through the camera of

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the phone, to give you a
suggestion of what to drink, for

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example, what to mix. So that
was a quite interesting

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experiment. And then the second
experiment is DuoDisco Hybrid.

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DuoDisco Hybrid is a hybrid
dance party, created by Distance

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Disco together with affect lab.
It was based on Distance Disco,

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which will send like an online
dance party, where you would...

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the interface was kind of
Zoom-like, but then with all

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fresh bright colours. So,
everyone would see themselves

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and hear a song and see the
other people dancing but there's

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only one or two person dancing
to the same song as you are

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dancing to. So, by moving to the
tunes and moving to the music,

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you can find your match and
that's how you score points and

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that's also a moment when you
are dancing together like big in

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the screen. And for the hybrid
experiments we did, we had also

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a space like a dance floor in
a location where multiple people

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would go there and they will all
use a web app to join the game.

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So, there were people online,
they were projected on the wall

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like really big, there are
people dancing in the location

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together and they were also, of
course, captured by a webcam so

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the online people could see them
and they could also be matched

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with... they're constantly
matched with one person online.

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So, they also needed to find
each other and the first person

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to find the person online they
were matched with would score

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the most points and then the
person online would also be

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really giant in the space,
dancing together with the whole

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dance floor of people in the
location. So, that was yeah,

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quite, they... both of these
experiments, were quite some

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interesting moments of finding a
deep connection with someone

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else online with someone on
site.

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Sekai: I feel like if I was
doing that I'd feel really self

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conscious. How did people feel
like knowing that their face or

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body was projected really large
on the screen or like dancing in

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the space? Like, what do you
think self consciousness was

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like in that context?

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Klasien: Well, it was really
interesting because also it's a

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bit, in a way, also a bit
awkward but also people knew

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about it upfront. So, they also
started to dress up and you know

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the people online, they added a
disco ball, a disco light in

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their living room. They were
really prepared for a dance

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party because you know, they
really wanted to dance. So, they

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were really in it. So yeah, I
think if you organise it well

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and people know it's a dance
event, that you will also be

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visible on the dance floor
either online or on site, then

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you also dress up for it. It's
like dressing up for a party but

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then it's in your living room.

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Sekai: Ah, I love this! Sounds
really interesting. So, a big

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part of the Toolkit For The
Inbetween website consists of

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examples of past and more
contemporary hybrid events and

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projects by artists. For this
series, we're highlighting a few

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relevant case studies. Let's
have a listen.

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voice over: For this case study
interlude we want to share The

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Infinite Conversation by Lundahl
& Seitl. During STRP festival

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2022, Swedish artists duo
Lundahl & Seitl presented the

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experience Infinite
Conversations, which is a hybrid

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event that happened in total
darkness. You step into this

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space and it's pitch-black. In
this space, guided by invisible

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hosts, microphones pick up the
conversations of on-site

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visitors that were broadcast
online to the virtual audience.

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At the same time, online
visitors could also contribute

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their voices to the on-site
experience. The experience took

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the form of a listening and
sharing session in the dark and

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contributed to a wider infinite
number of conversations.

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Visitors embarked on a sensory
adventure as they passed into a

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dark space guided by voices and
engaging in profound dialogues.

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As one visitor commented: "It's
interesting, in silence it feels

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like I disappear but on a normal
event, I'm present with my body.

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This means you become anonymous,
it is like I'm only existing

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when I'm talking". This
innovative approach revolves

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around the immersive experience
of visitors, shaping the

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exhibition space through their
embodied voices and

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interactions. The work’s
fluidity allowed it to adapt to

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different environments and
shape-shift when placed in

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different contexts. By plunging
the audience into darkness,

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Infinite Conversations moved the
focus away from what you see to

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other senses like hearing and
smell, proprioception, and

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thermoception.

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Sekai: So, internationally
operating artist duo Lundahl &

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Seitl have a background in
visual arts, choreography, and

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performance, and with their
immersive solo projects, they

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reinterpret exhibitions as
interpersonal processes by 

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movement, matter and time. The
visitor's perception is their

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prime medium, and they have
developed a method or an art

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form of triggers comprising
staging, choreographed movement,

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instructions, and immersive
technologies juxtaposed with

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material objects, and the human
ability to organise perception

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into a world. Notions of freedom
and autonomy, of what is real,

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what is imagined, and what is
perceived, negotiated in an

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investigation of virtual reality,
not as a form of technology but

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as an ability or sensibility to
adapt to a relationship with

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surroundings and others. One of
their projects, Infinite

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Conversations, is in The Toolkit
as a case study. Another more

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recent project of Lundahl &
Seitl, that is also hybrid in

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nature, is Tail of the Hen.
Welcome Christer and Martina.

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So, first off, it'll be great to
hear, Christer and Martina, if

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you had any reflections on The
Toolkit experiments that Klasien

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just described and told us
about.

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Martina: Yes, definitely. Thank
you for describing. I'm

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interested in... I have many
questions and I think it's

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interesting to look at how
people were... for example, if

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you have any examples, for
example, of how people were

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finding the connections, whether
that had to do with, for

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example, if they found... In the
movement, if they found a

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similar rhythm or if there would
be that they were rather

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opposing rhythm? Or was there a
particular pattern that you kind

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of felt made more connection? Or
did someone even close their

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eyes and still felt the
connection? Yeah.

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Klasien: Yeah, that's a nice
question, thanks. Yeah, so many

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people used moves and rhythm, and
also because the music was very

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diverse, you could see if it was
more like a hip-hop song, or

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more like a techno style, but
also it can be songs with a

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specific kind of dance to it,
like the Macarena, that's easy

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to find. But what was fun is
that also someone participating

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online was also kind of, you
know, people start when you...

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It was it's a bit game-like,
right? It's dancing in the

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game-like environment. People
also start to play with the

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rules that you set for the game.
So, someone was on purpose

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dancing in a really different
rhythm. It also kind of messed

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with the game. Or someone was
starting to write words on

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little notes, but like hints, not
really like the whole song. So

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they really liked, still like to
join the gameplay, let's say,

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but they kind of played with the
rules and what they could do, or

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some... like once, one time, one
person had the song Milkshake,

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she grabbed milk from the fridge
and started shaking. So, people

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are really like, in a humorous
way, using the rhythms. And you

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asked also about eyes closed...
I do not recall that

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specifically. Yeah, it is... I
mean, it is really needed to

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visually see the other person
dancing in this particular game

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but I do think it can be really
interesting to think further

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about using more, more senses,
like in your work for example,

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and also the sense of smell as
part of it, or different kinds of

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senses. I think that's really
interesting to explore further.

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Martina: Yeah, I mean not
necessarily I guess. I mean,

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it's interesting just to ask
like a paradox question and

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sometimes when you do a work,
you know, you kind of get

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surprised: Oh, actually people
found a way to do something that

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is almost... that you wouldn't
imagine to work logically and

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then actually, it did. I was
just kind of curious whether

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some people did that but it
seems that people connected a

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lot through a sense of humour or
playfulness and like you said,

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breaking the rules, and then of
course, the visual need. It

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would kind of, it sounds like it
would break down without the

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visual element to it.

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Klasien: Yeah and also in this
case, because people really

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joined for the dance party and
also liked to be on the screen

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visible. So yeah, so it's
yeah...

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Sekai: Christer, did you have
any reflections or anything you

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wanted to add?

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Christer: Yeah, no, I thought
that... I agree, kind of what

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you were saying, like it kind of
makes sense in a way, because

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when you're doing this kind of
hybridity, it's sort of... it

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becomes quite apparent what is
not there, sort of, and then I

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think you'll find a way to
compensate or like to find what

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is meaningful in that whatever
like, interface, you have to

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engage with that person somehow
and that doesn't have to be like

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a lack or somehow it's like,
it's a different thing.

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Klasien: I think it's also about
imagination in a way and I feel

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also that reflects to your work
as well. Like, actually, last

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night, I tried the app where you
are, you know, in front of the

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window, and you describe...
Well, I think you will talk more

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about it but it's also a lot
about imagination, like

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imagining this person next to
you but also the work in the

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dark that you imagine, you hear
voices but you, you know, you

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also imagine so much. I think you
can tell a lot more about it, of

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course, but I think imagination
is also a common thread here.

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Sekai: Yeah, so, my main
question, Christer and Martina,

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would you be able to kind of
talk about how you create

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togetherness and deep
connections as a method within

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your work?

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Martina: Yes. So in our work, if
we look back at it, several

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years, we've been using methods
of touch. So, maybe not

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necessarily always visually. I
mean, we have worked with

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virtual reality, but we use
something called... In the past,

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we used something called white
out goggles, a pair of goggles,

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where you can only perceive
light and shadow. And then, so

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the visitor would have white out
goggles and three dimensional

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headphones with sound, three
dimensional sound and then they

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will, we will work specifically
with a performer that's been

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trained to connect basically.
So, they go through a training

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on how to connect with someone
they might have never spoken to

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by only using the area of the
hand and they would also then

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embody a cryptographic score by
embodying a particular

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architecture through only that
hand. And because as a performer

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you become very, very aware like
if you transfer fear into... or

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insecurity into the body of the
visitor, they will immediately

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sense it, as they are in a more
vulnerable position than you, if

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you're a performer, because the
performer can see. So you really

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need to almost like, when you're
taking the hand of a child, you

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need to be really aware like
what you communicate

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non-verbally, and then that
sense... and then as a performer

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almost without thinking about
it, I think you are really

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searching for the connection
with that other person. I guess,

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you're trying to find trust. Trust
and connection is something that

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comes together but with both of
these things, there are aspects

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of... we realised, working with
this many, many years, we have

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no single recipe of what trust
and connection, what it is and

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what it can... There's no recipe
for it basically. It's something

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that we cannot maybe put, always
put a name on, because someone

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might use the same sort of
method and another performer

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another method, and then you
would not read it, that doesn't

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guarantee that there would be a
connection from both sides. And

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we're often quite wrong about
like, for example, as the

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performer you might have felt
very connected to someone but

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they might not have, the visitor
might not have felt the same way

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at all. So it's kind of
interesting as well, that

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there's also, the core of this
is also something that you

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cannot maybe totally grasp or
maybe prove. I mean there is

293
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some inspiration like Hartmut
Rosa, which is sociologist,

294
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Austrian sociologist, who looks
into the concept of resonance

295
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,660
which basically is a way of
relating to the world of

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listening, adapting and
responding rather than

297
00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:53,030
calculating, commanding and
controlling. And although he

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talks about this, he also says
that it's really difficult to

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hold on to that sense of
connection. Especially if you

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try to think about it too much,
as well. Yeah.

301
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Christer: It should also be
noted in the context that we are

302
00:20:07,930 --> 00:20:11,380
speaking that, what Martina
described is... these are artworks

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that is shown normally in, you
know, a museum, in an Art Center

304
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or, you know, that kind of
environment. So it's not hybrid

305
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:21,520
in that sense but something that
is maybe interesting in this

306
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context in terms of hybridity,
which is sort of like always...

307
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Sort of dealing with interfaces,
or like some kind of delineation

308
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about the surface, or like of
the inside/outside, or like

309
00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:38,410
online/offline, or this kind of
like, this kind of different

310
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,760
dimensions of things. And I
think showing works like ours in

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00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,430
museums is already like a
hybridity because you deal with

312
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:51,040
immersion, the experience within
the body. You know, where

313
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everything there happens to you
in a way, like someone leads

314
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your hand, there is a binaural
sound in your headphones, you

315
00:20:58,180 --> 00:21:01,300
move in a certain way, and
everything becomes synthesised

316
00:21:01,540 --> 00:21:06,790
together into a coherent
experience. But from the

317
00:21:06,790 --> 00:21:11,410
outside, something entirely
different is going on, one would

318
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know where you were, where you
were present basically and

319
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that's what I was thinking in
terms of like... when I had the

320
00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:22,360
introduction to The Infinite
Conversation that the... an

321
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:25,120
account from a visitor saying
that they disappeared when they

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00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:31,330
didn't speak and I think that
maybe that person experiences it

323
00:21:31,330 --> 00:21:34,540
in that way but, of course, if
you stop speaking you still have

324
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your... you're standing there,
you listen, you have your body

325
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and so on but for others, you
disappear. So, there is this

326
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,550
sort of like thing about... in
terms of togetherness, it's sort

327
00:21:45,550 --> 00:21:49,300
of like your subjective
experience but also then how can

328
00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:53,050
you communicate out to the
world. And I think what Martina

329
00:21:53,050 --> 00:21:56,830
said now is, like an example of
artworks where you work a lot

330
00:21:56,830 --> 00:21:58,990
with, we work with their
subjective experience as the

331
00:21:59,020 --> 00:22:04,540
medium of the artwork, but later
works have also been using those

332
00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:08,980
methods for groups. So that we're
starting with individuals but

333
00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:13,720
then also having, for example,
visitors themselves instead of

334
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,590
performers, they are then...
through instructions and

335
00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:20,320
different sort of like
choreography, they are the ones

336
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,580
that are also carrying out the
performance. So they create, it

337
00:22:24,580 --> 00:22:28,240
could be up to 100 people, for
example, doing these kinds of

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things.

339
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:34,480
Sekai: Great. So is a sense of
togetherness or even deep

340
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:39,670
connection between on-site and
online audiences or participants

341
00:22:39,790 --> 00:22:44,200
even possible? Like how can we
design for this, do you think?

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00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,190
Martina: Yes, I mean, first of
all, I think it's important to

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kind of really... not take
anything for granted. So if you,

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for example, have an online
presence, like what is actually

345
00:23:03,980 --> 00:23:08,390
an online presence, and how is
that integrated? And how is that

346
00:23:08,390 --> 00:23:11,750
part of the story of the event?
I mean, sometimes when you have

347
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:14,240
an online presence, for example,
in The Infinite Conversation,

348
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:19,010
which was mentioned before, it
was almost like... I mean,

349
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ideally, it would have been
interesting that the online

350
00:23:21,140 --> 00:23:23,030
voices will be heard in the
space that you wouldn't know

351
00:23:23,030 --> 00:23:25,790
whether they were there
physically or not, but it's

352
00:23:25,820 --> 00:23:29,900
almost in a way like when you
have a seat at a spiritual

353
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:34,310
seance. So for some people, so
some people would almost feel

354
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that it gave them like a
spiritual aspect of the work, and

355
00:23:38,660 --> 00:23:41,450
it might not for some others, but
it's like, there would be an

356
00:23:41,450 --> 00:23:44,630
example of how it would kind of
evolve that work further, how we

357
00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:47,720
would like move that into it.
And then another thought that

358
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,290
comes into my mind, which is
also a challenge, like what if

359
00:23:51,290 --> 00:23:57,050
one of the participating agents
are not a human? So, an upcoming

360
00:23:57,050 --> 00:24:00,560
project that we will do together
with Southbank Centre call River

361
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,730
Biographies. So what if you are
100 people in the space, but

362
00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:09,290
then you have a remote
connection with a river and that

363
00:24:09,290 --> 00:24:12,800
river is being... you can have,
you can maybe hear how it

364
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,460
sounds, there might be sensors
and then this river is channeled

365
00:24:16,790 --> 00:24:20,840
into the group and the group
embodies that information

366
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,010
physically through their body
and then transferring that into

367
00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:30,170
another person in the group. So
it's also like, how do we sort

368
00:24:30,170 --> 00:24:35,840
of imaginatively work with...
how's that river part of the

369
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,930
story, which is remote, but then
how do we also transfer that

370
00:24:38,930 --> 00:24:42,230
information among the
participants that are physically

371
00:24:42,260 --> 00:24:44,690
on the space? But then, yeah.

372
00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:47,660
Sekai: That's super interesting
as well, thinking of using

373
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nature as something that could
also be present online or

374
00:24:53,450 --> 00:24:58,340
connected and I think it's
really interesting. So with many

375
00:24:58,340 --> 00:25:00,980
of The Toolkit experiments, we
noticed that when there's a high

376
00:25:00,980 --> 00:25:04,220
level of feeling connected, it
goes hand in hand with some

377
00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:08,390
awkwardness. Does a sense of
togetherness perhaps even need

378
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:11,660
a bit of awkwardness to start
with? I wonder, do you

379
00:25:11,660 --> 00:25:16,370
conceptualise beforehand or is
awkwardness something you can't

380
00:25:16,370 --> 00:25:18,890
really control? Do you think
about awkwardness when you're

381
00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:21,460
creating your work?

382
00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:24,867
Christer: It's interesting.
Yeah, to some extent, but it's

383
00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:29,567
also, a lot of it comes up when
you test things but I think it's

384
00:25:29,639 --> 00:25:33,398
interesting. Some of our
projects like, for example,

385
00:25:33,471 --> 00:25:37,881
Unknown Cloud where people use
up technology and they meet up

386
00:25:37,953 --> 00:25:42,363
in a field and they engage with
each other in a way that they

387
00:25:42,436 --> 00:25:46,773
actually also lead each other at
one point in the place. But

388
00:25:46,846 --> 00:25:50,605
somehow, because of the
technology there seems to be

389
00:25:50,677 --> 00:25:54,943
sort of a like... Actually, the
awkwardness goes away, in a

390
00:25:55,015 --> 00:25:59,425
sense, because there is a filter
between somehow, even though

391
00:25:59,498 --> 00:26:03,835
it's just headphones, and you
know, like that they know that

392
00:26:03,908 --> 00:26:08,173
they are part of a sort of an
artwork. Then the limit, what

393
00:26:08,245 --> 00:26:12,656
they can agree to do would be
much greater in a way than they

394
00:26:12,728 --> 00:26:16,993
would be like just someone that
would... if we would have a

395
00:26:17,066 --> 00:26:21,114
workshop with no technology.
It's interesting, sometimes

396
00:26:21,187 --> 00:26:25,307
technology could actually bring
people either into social

397
00:26:25,380 --> 00:26:27,260
interactions to somehow...

398
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,192
Martina: I would say, I wouldn't
say... again, the recipe. I

399
00:26:30,255 --> 00:26:34,074
don't think it's necessarily a
negative awkwardness at all. I

400
00:26:34,137 --> 00:26:37,956
think you can be fully connected
and feel awkward at the same

401
00:26:38,018 --> 00:26:41,462
time. And then, I don't
necessarily think that you have

402
00:26:41,524 --> 00:26:45,469
to go through awkwardness either
in order to feel connected but

403
00:26:45,531 --> 00:26:49,475
very often we have observed that
the people that have described

404
00:26:49,538 --> 00:26:53,232
it, at least from their...
taking their description that if

405
00:26:53,294 --> 00:26:57,051
they... It also, I guess it
depends what type of awkwardness

406
00:26:57,114 --> 00:27:00,933
it is but a lot of it has been:
I became aware of the way I'm

407
00:27:00,995 --> 00:27:04,752
distrusting myself or others,
and then there was some points

408
00:27:04,814 --> 00:27:08,445
where they decided to let
some... well, somehow accept that,

409
00:27:08,508 --> 00:27:12,139
and once they accepted that
awkwardness, it sort of opened

410
00:27:12,202 --> 00:27:16,021
up into a deeper connection, at
least for them. I mean, other

411
00:27:16,083 --> 00:27:19,652
people when we speak about
awkwardness, do we then mean, I

412
00:27:19,715 --> 00:27:23,596
guess, lack of friction? I'm not
sure that's it. I mean Hartmut

413
00:27:23,659 --> 00:27:27,165
Rosa, the sociologist again,
doesn't say that in order to

414
00:27:27,228 --> 00:27:31,172
find resonance, you don't have
to necessarily be in harmony but

415
00:27:31,234 --> 00:27:35,116
I guess psychologically, a lot
of people do want to get rid of

416
00:27:35,179 --> 00:27:38,685
the analytical voice that we
have. You know, that's this

417
00:27:38,747 --> 00:27:42,629
voice that kind of, you know,
tells us off for being analytical

418
00:27:42,691 --> 00:27:46,761
to the self and to the other and
one way of getting... of kind of

419
00:27:46,824 --> 00:27:50,893
going beyond that is, of course,
to go into a more meditative state

420
00:27:50,956 --> 00:27:54,900
or hypnagogic state and that's
why we are kind of interested in

421
00:27:54,962 --> 00:27:58,781
these different states, because we
also remove, it removes that

422
00:27:58,844 --> 00:28:02,726
sense of awkwardness that might
sometimes then be a barrier to

423
00:28:02,788 --> 00:28:06,420
connect. But then again, I'm
saying that sometimes we just

424
00:28:06,482 --> 00:28:10,364
have to invite that analytical
voice into the context and some

425
00:28:10,426 --> 00:28:14,183
artworks are about... If the
artwork is about the analytical

426
00:28:14,245 --> 00:28:17,689
voice and becoming aware, then
it's part of the sort of

427
00:28:17,751 --> 00:28:21,383
equation as well, but then,
because in our work the artwork

428
00:28:21,445 --> 00:28:25,327
normally also... we could almost
argue that the visitor of the

429
00:28:25,389 --> 00:28:29,334
work owns the artwork, therefore
it owns their own process, and

430
00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:33,466
its emotion, his or her emotions
of it. So, we cannot really, you

431
00:28:33,528 --> 00:28:37,160
know we might expect them to
feel blissful but it might be

432
00:28:37,222 --> 00:28:41,166
the total opposite for them or
the other way around. It depends

433
00:28:41,229 --> 00:28:44,860
what a human being has been
through and it also depends on

434
00:28:44,923 --> 00:28:48,429
the culture. I mean, we traveled
a lot with our work and

435
00:28:48,491 --> 00:28:51,935
sometimes something just
doesn't work in a particular

436
00:28:51,997 --> 00:28:56,004
culture and then we might adapt
it or not adapt depending on the

437
00:28:56,067 --> 00:28:57,570
context and the artwork.

438
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,569
Klasien: I can also definitely
relate to that. Also, to add to

439
00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:04,407
it, I think you can also
definitely design for different

440
00:29:04,474 --> 00:29:08,246
stages of emotion or maybe
awkwardness to also guide the

441
00:29:08,313 --> 00:29:12,623
participants in these different
stages. I think that's also what

442
00:29:12,690 --> 00:29:16,865
you do with your work, and also
what's in a lot of experiments

443
00:29:16,933 --> 00:29:21,108
in The Toolkit. But therefore,
yeah, I also actually wanted to

444
00:29:21,175 --> 00:29:25,148
reply to what you said before
about the audience becoming a

445
00:29:25,216 --> 00:29:29,526
performer, that I think often, you
know, you do not... you can say

446
00:29:29,593 --> 00:29:33,768
that upfront that you become a
performer but usually that also

447
00:29:33,835 --> 00:29:38,078
feels a bit: "Oh, I'm not sure,
am I performing? Can I do it?"

448
00:29:38,145 --> 00:29:41,849
Well, actually, through
experience design or arts, that

449
00:29:41,916 --> 00:29:45,688
you guide an audience in
different stages, then suddenly

450
00:29:45,755 --> 00:29:49,661
they become a performer without
even realising it. I think

451
00:29:49,728 --> 00:29:53,769
that's what you can design for
and that can be still awkward

453
00:29:53,836 --> 00:29:58,078
but you still guide this person
to it, because maybe you want it

454
00:29:58,146 --> 00:30:01,917
to be awkward to get that kind
of emotion you want as an

455
00:30:01,984 --> 00:30:06,227
artist, or maybe you want it to
become less awkward, you can of

456
00:30:06,294 --> 00:30:10,402
course also design for that. But
I do... In my experience and

457
00:30:10,469 --> 00:30:14,375
projects I've worked with
myself, and hybrid projects, the

458
00:30:14,443 --> 00:30:18,348
awkwardness usually leads to a
bigger sense, in the end, a

459
00:30:18,416 --> 00:30:22,524
bigger sense of togetherness.
And that people respond: "Oh, I

460
00:30:22,591 --> 00:30:26,833
would never have joined this if
I would have known upfront what

461
00:30:26,901 --> 00:30:31,211
was going to happen but now I'm
really glad I did because it was

462
00:30:31,278 --> 00:30:32,760
a special experience".

452
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:38,100
Sekai: That's really good. So, I
thought it was interesting

463
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:41,280
Martina, when you were speaking
earlier about when you have the

464
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,020
goggles, and someone is guiding
people by their hand. In

465
00:30:46,020 --> 00:30:49,290
relation to that, I kind of
thought about, maybe notions of

466
00:30:49,290 --> 00:30:53,460
consent. So, in those types of
contexts, how important is

467
00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:57,420
careful onboarding and
aftercare in creating deeper

468
00:30:57,420 --> 00:31:01,380
connections and togetherness, to
be able to fully appreciate

469
00:31:01,410 --> 00:31:02,970
hybrid experiences?

470
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,010
Martina: Yeah, I mean, that is
really important, the way people

471
00:31:07,010 --> 00:31:12,830
are taken into the work, and the
way they're taken care of when

472
00:31:12,830 --> 00:31:16,640
coming out of the work. I mean,
ideally, we would love to have

473
00:31:17,090 --> 00:31:20,450
much more time and space for
doing that. I mean, sometimes

474
00:31:20,450 --> 00:31:24,470
the... I guess the production
machine of an artwork gets in

475
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:26,990
the way and you can have "how
many runs can we do in a day?"

476
00:31:26,990 --> 00:31:31,940
and then you are not taking as
much time as you want to do for

477
00:31:31,940 --> 00:31:36,890
the preparation and the
aftercare. And ideally, we would

478
00:31:36,890 --> 00:31:39,920
prefer to have as much time for
the preparation and the

479
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,880
aftercare as the artwork itself,
and letting that too become part

480
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,040
of the artwork, but then we
might end up with like three

481
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,030
hours of it. So, it's very
important. So, the first that

482
00:31:50,030 --> 00:31:53,870
even meets you... when you come
to our work, we want that the

483
00:31:54,290 --> 00:31:59,060
person that greets you, and takes
care of the practicality is kind

484
00:31:59,060 --> 00:32:04,250
of clear and quite grounded, and
safe. They're not kind of even,

485
00:32:04,250 --> 00:32:08,180
I guess, performing but they
also kind of inform, like, oh,

486
00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:11,420
what if someone is pregnant?
Or when it's, you know, someone is

487
00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:15,770
disabled. So we know kind of
what to do in those situations

488
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,920
as well and then it also... If
there is something, there is,

489
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,670
for example, a child that is
worried and they might do the

490
00:32:22,670 --> 00:32:25,400
work with their parents. We
might, this person might then

491
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,020
notify the other people in the
group that are performing, so

492
00:32:30,020 --> 00:32:34,040
that we are aware how to take
care of the person as well. And

493
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,260
then the aftercare, I guess,
sometimes when you also go

494
00:32:36,260 --> 00:32:38,990
through a strong positive
experience, it can be equally

495
00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:42,500
isolating, if you don't have
anyone to speak about it when

496
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:46,310
you come home, and then you
speak about something, and then

497
00:32:46,310 --> 00:32:50,030
nobody understands you really.
So, but then a specific event,

498
00:32:50,030 --> 00:32:54,050
if you have had a difficult
experience, then it's important

499
00:32:54,050 --> 00:32:58,760
to first have the group and
then... In some of our work as a

500
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,710
performer, you kind of listen to
the person because you feel it's

501
00:33:03,710 --> 00:33:05,570
important to them, but some
people don't want to speak

502
00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:09,620
afterwards, they want to also be
left alone. Yeah, and then of

503
00:33:09,620 --> 00:33:12,710
course, sometimes if you are
removing someone's sight, and

504
00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:15,770
they are not used to it, or we
use the sense of touch, of

505
00:33:15,770 --> 00:33:19,880
course something's gonna happen,
but some people react very

506
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,460
strongly, or people can be
scared of dark, which I am

507
00:33:22,460 --> 00:33:31,310
myself. I mean, I have to be
taken care of. So depending on

508
00:33:31,340 --> 00:33:35,330
the difficulty, then I mean
sometimes the performer has

509
00:33:35,330 --> 00:33:38,450
maybe taken a coffee with a
person that had a difficult

510
00:33:38,450 --> 00:33:43,340
time, so you just don't leave
them. But that is also because we

511
00:33:43,340 --> 00:33:46,820
had to have a lot of one-on-one
performances. Yeah, so if you

512
00:33:46,820 --> 00:33:52,310
are in a larger group, we have
to find like a system for that,

513
00:33:52,340 --> 00:33:55,880
or more like a structure around
that, but we would like to make

514
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,370
it really important. It's
almost, we almost want to make

515
00:33:58,370 --> 00:34:02,270
it into more of a ritual and I
think this year is going to be a

516
00:34:02,270 --> 00:34:07,070
lot about looking into different
types of rituals. Everything

517
00:34:07,070 --> 00:34:11,960
maybe from shamanism, to
religious rituals, to other

518
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,280
types of rituals that we do, a
psychological kind of rituals.

519
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,140
Some people also just want to
know the information of what's

520
00:34:21,140 --> 00:34:24,080
going to happen and what do I do
if I want to get out of the

521
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,340
space? Or like you want to know
the rules and the exit kind of

522
00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:31,340
strategy to get out of the
space. So, how do we get out of a

523
00:34:31,340 --> 00:34:35,120
dark room? We cannot see, you
know, but there has to be like

524
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,910
rules in place for people to
feel safe.

525
00:34:38,810 --> 00:34:42,110
Sekai: Great, as we wrap up
today's episode, I'd love to

526
00:34:42,110 --> 00:34:45,230
hear a quick takeaway from both
of you on togetherness and

527
00:34:45,230 --> 00:34:48,620
connection but before we dive
into that, we have another case

528
00:34:48,620 --> 00:34:49,130
study.

529
00:34:51,430 --> 00:34:54,670
voice over: For this case study
interlude we want to share The

530
00:34:54,670 --> 00:35:00,190
Gossip by affect lab. In 2021,
with the pandemic enforcement,

531
00:35:00,970 --> 00:35:03,790
Zoom fatigue became a serious
problem for many people meeting

532
00:35:03,790 --> 00:35:07,450
online. This was a big
inspiration for the team behind

533
00:35:07,450 --> 00:35:09,880
The Gossip to create a
meaningful connection between

534
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,260
people without using the video
stream. Voice has significant

535
00:35:14,290 --> 00:35:17,560
aspects of bandwidth, making it
a powerful carrier of emotion

536
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,160
and intimacy. Stripped from the
usual bells and whistles of

537
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,980
other forms of digital
communication, like emojis or

538
00:35:23,980 --> 00:35:27,550
text messages, the simplicity of
the phone call foregrounds the

539
00:35:27,550 --> 00:35:30,160
fact that people's voices can
convey a ton of empathy and

540
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,370
understanding and therefore
contribute to a more personal

541
00:35:33,370 --> 00:35:37,150
connection. A specific telephone
number was shared with both the

542
00:35:37,150 --> 00:35:41,590
online and on-site attendees of
an event. At the exact same

543
00:35:41,590 --> 00:35:44,830
moment, both groups called the
number from their mobile phones

544
00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:48,670
and the audio experience began.
The experience works like a

545
00:35:48,670 --> 00:35:51,610
choose your own adventure style
story, where you press a number

546
00:35:51,610 --> 00:35:55,060
to choose how the story
continues. At the end of the

547
00:35:55,060 --> 00:35:57,880
experience, you automatically
get reconnected with someone

548
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,270
else anonymously and they're
asked to share your own story

549
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:05,740
with the other person on the
line. The Gossip celebrates

550
00:36:05,740 --> 00:36:10,090
intimate conversations between
strangers. Invoking the nostalgia

551
00:36:10,090 --> 00:36:13,390
of a landline call, it takes the
form of an audio experience and

552
00:36:13,390 --> 00:36:15,910
an exchange over the phone
between two people who have

553
00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:20,620
never met before. One audience
member recalls "The experience

554
00:36:20,620 --> 00:36:23,200
lasted over an hour, I had a
true connection with this

555
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,350
person, and we chatted for so
long. So this really amazed me

556
00:36:26,350 --> 00:36:27,280
and made my day."

557
00:36:28,510 --> 00:36:33,190
Sekai: So I'd love to hear what
the takeaways are from all of

558
00:36:33,190 --> 00:36:37,120
you in terms of togetherness and
connection from today's episode.

559
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,250
So Klasien, let's start with
you.

560
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,530
Klasien: Yeah, so first of all,
I'm actually inspired by what

561
00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:48,990
Martina said last about rituals.
I'm also very interested in that

562
00:36:48,990 --> 00:36:53,490
and I also think because it was
mentioned also in the topic of

563
00:36:53,490 --> 00:36:58,560
the aftercare and I think, and
beforehand. I think rituals are

564
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,820
really interesting to work with
and also to see this as part of

565
00:37:02,820 --> 00:37:06,840
the whole experience but also,
it reminded me of an experience

566
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,920
I was in myself. That sometimes,
for instance in VR, just like

567
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,650
that you are in this virtual
world, or just like that indeed

568
00:37:13,650 --> 00:37:18,690
you are in this dark space that
you need some kind of ritual or

569
00:37:18,690 --> 00:37:25,290
some kind of ease into it but
also, it reminded me of this.

570
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,670
This is also a perfect moment of
you as an artist or creator or

571
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:32,940
maker to connect to your
audience and to also understand

572
00:37:32,940 --> 00:37:37,290
better what the experience is,
just by having this direct

573
00:37:37,290 --> 00:37:40,890
connection, which could also
lead into super interesting

574
00:37:40,890 --> 00:37:44,700
research to develop the artwork
further. That was just on top of

575
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:48,900
my mind because Martina was just
talking about it. The other

576
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:52,860
takeaway I have from this
episode, I think is also

577
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:58,650
inspired by your work about the
darkness of the project

578
00:37:58,650 --> 00:38:05,100
discussed. I also think removing
like a very specific like sense,

579
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:09,360
in this case sight for darkness,
also is a really interesting

580
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,310
tool actually. Like a design
tool, or tool to create an art

581
00:38:14,370 --> 00:38:20,220
like an experience that changes
people's mindset and also changes

582
00:38:20,220 --> 00:38:24,720
the way how we are together or
we feel togetherness. By

583
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:29,820
removing a sense, we can also
amplify other senses that we use

584
00:38:29,820 --> 00:38:33,270
to feel as a community or feel
together or feel like sharing.

585
00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:36,210
So yeah, those were my two
takeaways.

586
00:38:36,420 --> 00:38:40,800
Sekai: Brilliant, thank you.
Christer, can I go over to you?

587
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,110
What's your takeaway from today
that you'd like to share?

588
00:38:44,860 --> 00:38:51,460
Christer: In general, how, I
guess, the notion of hybridity

589
00:38:51,460 --> 00:38:56,920
and how different type of
practices can be. So like, in

590
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:02,200
general, I think because our own
practice hasn't really been

591
00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:06,820
dealing exclusively with online
and for like physical space

592
00:39:06,850 --> 00:39:15,760
connection, but still sort of
rather maybe more between sort

593
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,330
of all kinds of different
delineations between like inside

594
00:39:19,330 --> 00:39:28,960
and outside, and also social
precedence versus more like

595
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,750
psychological precedence, how
you can have different states.

596
00:39:32,110 --> 00:39:36,250
And I think any kind of
experience, or design experience,

597
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:42,460
if it is an artwork, or if it is
for a design solution for like a

598
00:39:42,490 --> 00:39:47,980
like online spaces or hybrid
spaces, it's really about taking

599
00:39:48,580 --> 00:39:54,430
in consideration about what kind
of psychological states do I

600
00:39:54,430 --> 00:40:00,610
bring people into, while doing
this sort of like decisions in

601
00:40:00,610 --> 00:40:03,580
terms of interfaces, and how I
structure an event and so on.

602
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:06,220
Sekai: Great, thank you. And
Martina, for you?

603
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:09,759
Martina: Yes, I'm taking away a
lot. I mean, it's been really

604
00:40:09,827 --> 00:40:14,023
interesting to speak with you
and think together with you. And

605
00:40:14,091 --> 00:40:17,813
I think there's a lot of
questions that ask a lot and I

606
00:40:17,881 --> 00:40:22,010
would like to understand more
and delve like deeper into. One

607
00:40:22,077 --> 00:40:26,206
question is like, might seem
very obvious, which is like what

608
00:40:26,274 --> 00:40:30,470
is actually a presence? Because
you mentioned that, and before,

609
00:40:30,538 --> 00:40:34,463
about kind of imagining a
presence, and then sometimes how,

610
00:40:34,531 --> 00:40:38,727
when we imagine being connected
to someone, how different does

611
00:40:38,795 --> 00:40:42,924
it feel than if we actually are
connected, both of us as well.

612
00:40:42,991 --> 00:40:47,188
And then maybe that if I feel
connected to someone, maybe that

613
00:40:47,256 --> 00:40:51,181
is also something that is
contagious to that other person.

614
00:40:51,249 --> 00:40:55,310
So then what happens actually,
in the body when we feel this

615
00:40:55,378 --> 00:40:58,829
sense of connectedness? For
example, when you dance

616
00:40:58,897 --> 00:41:02,755
together? Like how does that
feel in the body? How do you

617
00:41:02,823 --> 00:41:07,154
kind of relate to space? How do
you kind of, maybe it encourages

618
00:41:07,222 --> 00:41:11,351
you to break the rules, like you
feel safe. So you need to be

619
00:41:11,418 --> 00:41:15,818
able to break the rules in a way
and that's a sign, maybe, of being

620
00:41:15,886 --> 00:41:20,082
connected. And then sometimes if
you're in a physical context,

621
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:24,143
you might not necessarily feel
connected. So I mean, for me,

622
00:41:24,211 --> 00:41:27,595
also being autistic and
hypersensitive to a lot of

623
00:41:27,662 --> 00:41:31,250
stimuli, being in the same
physical space can be very

624
00:41:31,317 --> 00:41:35,175
connecting but after some time,
I can get overwhelmed. So

625
00:41:35,243 --> 00:41:38,830
actually, when corona came, I
could presume, I felt the

626
00:41:38,898 --> 00:41:42,959
connection, I could maintain a
sense of connection... at least

627
00:41:43,026 --> 00:41:46,614
from my side, much, much longer.
But there's a lot of

628
00:41:46,681 --> 00:41:50,742
interesting, I think topics
to... It is incredible, in a way

629
00:41:50,810 --> 00:41:55,074
and it might sound obvious that
we can transcend space and still

630
00:41:55,142 --> 00:41:59,406
feel connected. I mean, we can
sometimes even feel connected to

631
00:41:59,474 --> 00:42:03,670
a voice that is recorded, even
though it doesn't respond to us

632
00:42:03,738 --> 00:42:07,731
live, which I guess contradicts
what I said about listening,

633
00:42:07,799 --> 00:42:11,860
responding and adapting, but I
guess I'm just questioning the

634
00:42:11,927 --> 00:42:15,447
presence. What is really
presence and what is really

635
00:42:15,514 --> 00:42:19,575
absence? I mean, I'm going on for
long now, but when in our work,

636
00:42:19,643 --> 00:42:23,704
when you being blindfolded for
example, you have the hand of

637
00:42:23,772 --> 00:42:27,562
the guy and then you have not.
And in the work, the most

638
00:42:27,630 --> 00:42:31,488
important aspect is actually
when you don't feel the hand

639
00:42:31,555 --> 00:42:35,819
because then you sort of... some
people say they still have the

640
00:42:35,887 --> 00:42:39,948
sense of presence around them
but they... Because they don't

641
00:42:40,016 --> 00:42:44,347
know where the guide is, it kind
of dilutes itself into some sort

642
00:42:44,415 --> 00:42:48,273
of ghost-feel that they feel
almost like a 360 awareness of presence,

643
00:42:48,341 --> 00:42:52,199
even though realistically of
course, that's not the case.

644
00:42:52,266 --> 00:42:56,530
Sometimes the absence can give
space to the presence as well if

645
00:42:56,598 --> 00:42:58,020
you know what I mean.

646
00:42:58,110 --> 00:43:01,810
Yeah and that's, I think, also
where the imagination starts. So

647
00:43:01,870 --> 00:43:05,180
this all comes together.

648
00:43:05,250 --> 00:43:08,820
Sekai: Beautiful. Well thank you
for your presence today, all of

649
00:43:08,820 --> 00:43:12,870
you, and for sharing your
takeaways. So thanks for hanging

650
00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:16,770
out with us on this hybrid ride.
You can now continue with full

651
00:43:16,770 --> 00:43:20,370
focus during your morning
exercises, hopefully being on

652
00:43:20,370 --> 00:43:24,390
the train by now and finally,
feel ready to start dreaming for

653
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:28,200
real. If you're still vibing
with the in-between space, more

654
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,200
episodes of The Inbetween
Machine are either already in

655
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,920
your podcast app or on their
way. Have you binged all

656
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,620
episodes so far, or want to
learn more about the

657
00:43:37,620 --> 00:43:42,270
possibilities, potentialities
and pitfalls of our in-between

658
00:43:42,270 --> 00:43:46,560
environment? Then go to 
toolkitfortheinbetween.com