Time & Space

The in-between

The Inbetween Machine

Welcome to The Inbetween Machine, the podcast that adds a

touch of excitement to your hybrid lifestyle. Chances are

you're tuning in while folding laundry, biking to a meeting or

winding down for the night. Our goal is simple: to enhance your

hybrid skills.

My name is Sekai Makoni, and I'm a mixed black woman with Afro

hair, a brown top and green trousers. I'm a cultural

programmer, workshop facilitator, podcaster and

artist. I'm your host, here to explore various aspects of

hybrid living in each episode. Joining me are the people who

created the Toolkit for the Inbetween and a special guest,

all sharing insights into the world of hybrid experiences.

The Toolkit for the Inbetween is a website. It's like a creative

toolbox for hybrid events brought to you by members from

three Dutch cultural institutions: The Hmm, a

platform and laboratory for internet and digital cultures;

affect lab, a research driven creative storytelling studio

focused on an inclusive future; and MU, a hybrid art house with

interdisciplinary exhibitions and innovative education.

In today's episode, we're delving into the role of time

and space in hybrid gatherings. So grab a cup of tea or coffee,

settle in, and let's explore the fascinating intersection of the

physical and digital in our lives. Welcome to The Inbetween

Machine.

The in-between.

When we're recording this, it's a calm December morning. It's

rainy outside and not as cold as we would like. And we're

downstairs in the basement of our Amsterdam podcast studio.

Today I'm joined by toolkit member, Lilian Stolk, who is the

director of The Hmm. Welcome, Lilian. Could you give us a

visual description of yourself?

Yes, I'm having brown hair and wearing it in a bun. I have a

light skin. And I'm wearing a woollen sweater, which if you

look closely has a print of a cake with the swirls and red

dots.

Beautiful. And we have a special guest here in the studio. Esther

Hammelburg. Could you give us a visual description of yourself

as well?

Sure, I have brown straight half long hair, white skin, brown

eyes, wearing a black sweater, and a black skirt with flowers

on it.

Beautiful. Welcome both of you.

Thank you.

So today's focus themes are time and space, to look more

specifically at how you can play with these themes during hybrid

events. You, Lillian, brought along two toolkit experiments,

The Hmm @ 4 Locations and Weaving Spaces. Lillian, could

you give us a short description of both toolkit experiments?

Yeah, sure. I start with The Hmm @ 4 Locations, because this was

I have one at home actually. It's a very fresh scent.

actually an event where the format was inspired by a

conversation I had with Esther. Esther was mentioning football

games as the perfect example of hybrid events because it can

take on different in different locations. You can experience it

in a football stadium, but you can also watch the game on the

big screen in a town square or watch it at home with friends.

And in all situations you still have the idea or the feeling

you're part of this live experiment or live event. And we

got triggered by this idea that, yeah, an event can have

different hubs. And we also wanted to see if we could take

it a bit further and even decentralise a programme even

more. Because in the football game example, still like the

most, yeah, the dominant part of the programme is taking place in

one location. And with The Hmm @ 4 Locations we actually had the

programme spread over four locations in four different

cities in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam, Utrecht, Eindhoven

and Rotterdam. It was an event with eight speakers. And in each

of the locations, there were two speakers physically present. And

the other speakers could be followed via livestream. And

there were different ways how we tried to stimulate connection

and exchange. And one aspect was that we created our own scent.

And we launched it during this event, I also brought it with

me. It's called The Hmmosphere and we created it together with

scent artist Cesar Majorana. And together we tried to translate,

we tried to make a scent for The Hmm. The Hmm is a platform for

internet culture, but how does the internet actually smell? So

yeah, we tried to... I can show you? Or show you...

Yeah, it's quite fresh. There's a lot of ozone in it, which is

also the smell that you, that appears when you're printing a

lot, for instance.

Smells a bit like warm cables.

Yeah, so we're spraying this scent in all the locations. So

yeah, there was a bit of a common, at least a common smell

in each location. And also people joining in from their own

house, joining in online, they also could order the scent and

spray it. So that was one thing that was similar in each

location. Then we also had that, like, all audiences were active

in the chat. And the chat was also presented on the stage. So

that's where everybody was having a conversation with each

other. They could also, if they had a question to one of the

speakers, they could ask it via the chat. Yeah, so that was also

a point where all the audience came together. And another

element that we added was that we did a wave at the end of the

event with all the locations. So we started in Amsterdam, then

Eindhoven, Utrecht and Rotterdam.

And how did you coordinate that? You're were just like...

Yeah, the audience could see themselves via the live stream.

So we, we, yeah, they responded to each other. Yeah, so that was

a bit of a short description of the @ 4 Locations event and then

for the Weaving Spaces event... Yeah, it's easy, of course, to

forget online audiences, because you don't see them. And it's

actually interesting to realise that everybody's joining from a

different, in a different situation. With The Hmm events,

we also often ask this question in the chat like, how are you

experiencing this event? Are you sitting in a kitchen table, at

your kitchen table? Or are you on the way, and we also for the

event Weaving Spaces - or the experiment Weaving Spaces - got

inspired by the ritual of check-in moments, where you

start a meeting with quickly sharing a personal like

situation you're in or what is also forming your experience, I

think. This together with the habit of knitting and weaving to

come together and share stories, led to the Weaving Spaces

experiment where we start an event with some questions that

we asked the audience. Can be questions from what surface is

underneath your foot at the moment, to how do you feel at

the moment? People answer that via a special web app that we

developed and after answering all the questions, the answers

are translated to abstract and less abstract data

visualisations and we also have a shared pixel drawing that they

made. And people can see their personal pattern that they

created after answering the questions, but we, as the event

organisers, we see a pattern appear that combines all the

answers and it's actually a pattern for a scarf that we

knit. I also brought some experiments. This is a scarf

that we printed for the The Hmm @ CBK Zuidoost. So here you see

the pixel drawing that the visitors made together, everyone

can put five pixels in the canvas here. Also the little

emotes, that was the most chosen emote of how people do feel at

this event, and here, oh yeah, how people are describing their

feeling after the event or the experience of the event? Is it

hectic? Was it lonely? Exciting? And what is it, it's a bit

difficult to read... interesting. And then it's, it's

stated like the most chosen option is the first one. And

then the last, the lonely one is the last chosen option. So

that's, that's good. And it's also having the date and the

title of the event.

I love it, and did people get to get a copy of the scarf?

Yeah, that we didn't develop yet but we want to. And I think the,

yeah, also the idea of that you create something together is

also making, yeah, giving a bit of bonding between the different

audiences. Yeah, so, and indeed, if you can then also order the

scarf and wear it yourself it's, yeah, adding to that idea.

I really love, like the way you're describing all of the

events, it feels like there's a kind of, a playfulness to it,

like the scent or the scarf. And even, in fact, like the

reference to football, right, watching it in person or on a

screen, and then you kind of create a scarf, which also feels

in some ways, like a reference to football.

Oh, yeah, I didn't think about that.

But I suppose I wonder what play and what, what role, like play

or humour or lightness has in your approach to these hybrid

events?

Yeah. Yeah, that's really important. I think also, content

wise, sometimes the topics are quite serious that we discuss

and if we put a lot of humour and playfulness in it, it's also

easier to digest. And I think with these hybrid events, it's

often... Yeah, we don't see so many fun experiments with hybrid

events, I think. It's often... people place a camera in space

and it's just a livestream. It's also a very passive experience,

like it's more becoming a TV broadcast. And I think, the most

important element of an event is that it is interactive, and

you're part of something. So I think adding the playfulness in

it is also contributing to that. Otherwise, we could make a

podcast of the event.

And what were people's reactions like after the event? Like oh,

this is so cool, there's a scent or I got a scarf. Like what did

people say who attended?

Yeah, they love it.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I was a visitor, at one of the four locations and of some other

events. Yeah. So I bought the scent. I have it in my toilet at

home.

It's still there. Yeah, I really like it. It's really, I really

[laughter]

like the idea of using the senses and turning something

Like a memento. Brilliant. Thank you so much. And now we're going

that you're studying into different senses. So the scent

turning the internet into a smell. Yeah, I really liked the

notion, it broadens your scope, your way of thinking about how

the internet works, or what this means to the world. And it's a

nice artefact to have in your home.

to hear about a historical case study. So let's take a listen.

For this case study interlude, we want to share The World in 24

Hours by Robert Adrien. Transporting ourselves to the

year 1982, we find EUnet making its debut, marking the early

days of the European internet. Back then a realm mostly

reserved for scientists and researchers. Amidst this

backdrop, Robert Adrian introduces The World in 24 Hours

at the Ars Electronica Festival on September 27th. The project

is a telecommunication venture linking Linz, the host city of

the festival, with 15 cities worldwide. Each city was given a

specific time slot based on its timezone. From midday on

September 27th, to midday on September 28th, artistic groups

in each city connected with Adrian's team in Linz through a

variety of channels: computer terminals, telephones, fax, and

slow scan TV. The team in Linz contacted each location at 12

o'clock in their respective timezone. They then had one hour

to exchange material with the Linz team. Adrian envisioned the

project as setting a precedent for using telecommunication

networks in global artistic collaboration. The deliberate

choice of accessible mediums encouraged widespread

participation. The World in 24 Hours embodied mid-deep

hybridity, utilising diverse telecommunication methods to

connect artists globally in real time. Linz acted as a central

hub, facilitating collaboration despite the physical distance.

Although remote teams weren't directly connected, their

participation wove them into the 24 hour narrative, fostering a

sense of connection among participants. This

telecommunication endeavour wasn't just about technology, it

was also a human story. As the clock ticked, a shared creative

space emerged, transcending physical boundaries. The

artworks became more than conduits, they transformed into

vessels for shared creativity, bringing tangible artworks to

life in Linz. In the quiet dance of global connectivity, The

World in 24 Hours stands as a testament to the potential of

technology, reminding us that even in the vastness of

cyberspace, the heartbeat of human creativity remains

steadfast.

Esther Hammelburg is an expert on live experiences and hybrid

events. She claims that every event is in fact hybrid. We are

always in both physical and media environment at the same

time. She drew this conclusion from her PhD research, which

consisted of extensive fieldwork, speaking to 379

people, and gathering large datasets from social media

platforms, with which she shows how media use shaped the way we

experience being there live. Welcome, Esther.

Thank you very much.

So I was wondering: Is recording this podcast today also a hybrid

experience for you?

I think, yeah, every experience is hybrid. I think for us, for

us itself it's less hybrid in the sense that we're very

focused at what we're doing at this moment. We are not, our

voices are going to be in a lot of different media environments

afterwards. There's other people on the other side of the wall,

looking at us and listening to us. So we're aware of that. So

in that sense, you might call it hybrid. But I think it's more a

hybrid experience for the listener, because you'll listen

to this, as you said, in your introduction, perhaps when

you're in bed before sleep, or biking somewhere or on the train

or making dinner. And I believe that experiences differ also,

because these physical environments shape the way you

experience something. So for the listener, for sure, it's a very-

I think podcasts is one of the most hybrid experiences

actually, because we move along the physical world, while

listening to this media text.

Brilliant. So according to your research, we are here together

now is the crux of every event. And maybe we can unravel this

for hybrid events. And the here for an onsite event is the event

space. But maybe it includes also the travel to an event

space. For online visitors, the here is their computer, and also

the room where they are watching from. So what does space

contribute to an event? And how can we utilise this for a hybrid

experience?

Yeah, yeah, so in my PhD research, I studied liveness.

And said: a live experience makes- is being here, now,

together. So it's the space, the time and a social context. And

for space, what I studied was people who were at events, so

often festivals that were organised in a physical space,

but also, for instance, the Dutch fundraiser Serious

Request, which is a multimedia or a cross-medial format, which

has a studio where people can go to on a town square, but it's

also a radio programme. It's also life on television, it's a

live stream. So that is very, has very different spaces and

places to experience the event in. And what I noticed is that

visitors, even though they might be physically there at a

festival, they are also at the same time in various media

environment. So you are also on Instagram, for instance, I've

spoken to people who... one of my events that I researched was

the Pride in Amsterdam. I've spoken to people who were on a

boat in the Canal Parade, which is the central event of the

Pride so you would say that's the most there you can be,

saying that if they wouldn't have any photograph or social

media posts from that, they would feel less there. So being

there on Instagram or on a photo even in your own phone or

printed or on your roll or whatever, has a role in

affirming where you are, your sense of being there. So I think

that's very central to hybrid events. And you can play with

this, in the sense, well for instance, organising an event in

different locations. But I think event organisers in general, as

Lilian said before, when we speak about hybrid events,

especially after COVID, what we got accustomed to is doing an

event as we used to do and then putting a webcam or a camera on

it and doing a live stream, which is a bit boring, I think,

because often, I mean, sometimes it's interesting, if it's talk,

if somebody is just doing like a talk, this can work very well.

I've seen this for conferences, it's sometimes a very good

alternative to travelling the world to see someone speak. But

I think there's so much more possible for media makers, for

event organisers, if you think about, for instance, if you make

an audio track to your event and other people- and people can

listen to this beforehand, or afterwards, or on their way

there, perhaps, and include the spaces that people are in at

other times, not only when physically at the event.

I also think one interesting thing you brought up, or that

you told me earlier was the example of Serious Request. And

that that was a, is a recurring event always taking place during

the Christmas period. And also when people were experiencing

that event on the television, it was very important for them that

their house was decorated with Christmas decoration.

Yeah, people, so... So this is a very- because it's on TV, it's

every year, so people get used to it. There's quite a lot of

fans of the event. And a lot of people connection is really with

their home experience watching it, so not so much the event on

a town square where the Glass House Studio is, but their home,

where the dog is lying down and the Christmas tree for a lot of

people at that time is standing or they have like candles

burning because it's dark outside. So the cosiness of the

house, you can make your house cosy in December, plays a large

role in the experience of Serious Request. And even so

that you mentioned before about the football game, there's one

physical main event where it is, but I think maybe similar to a

football game, when you're at a stadium, you don't always see

the best shots of what happens. And in Serious Request, this is

really something, I interviewed people who were, who followed it

at a distance through television or live streams and people who

were there. And people who did both. And people, I've spoken to

a lot of people who said that it's a very different experience

being at the Glass House Studio where you're very close by where

it happens, you see the radio DJs, you see artists perform.

It's a party. So you have all of the senses of being in a crowd

and an event like that. But it's very difficult to follow the

main event, because the main event is a recording of a radio

show, a conversation, which you can hear best on the radio or

see best on television. So even people would sometimes rewatch

the parts of the programme after they were there. Because they

felt they missed something and they wanted to see like the

closeup of the DJ who will get emotional or stuff like that. So

I think that's also, if you're organising hybrid events, if you

just put a webcam on it, it's perhaps not the perfect

experience. I think it's important to understand that

it's not a replacement of physically, or not per se a

replacement of physically being there, but another form of

experiencing the event. And if you organise it like this, then

you can organise very rich hybrid events.

So we often think of online visitors as being at home behind

their laptops. But mobile tech is getting so much better that

we may start thinking of online as being actually mobile, as in

moving around. How do you think this may enhance online and/or

on site experiences?

Yeah, I think for sure everything is becoming more

mobile. Also with Serious Request. I mean, I did my field

research for that in 2017, I think, in December 2017. So

that's a long time ago already. Even then people said they were

watching the live stream on the go or listening, it's also live

broadcast on the radio. So listening in the car or at work

was a large part of the event. And I think we can use this

also, and here space and time connects a bit in the sense that

I think one aspect is the live event as it is happening at that

moment, but you can also have parts of it that you have, that

you listen to or watch beforehand or afterwards. And

especially then, I mean that you can do that anywhere, I guess.

So, podcasting, audio tracks are becoming more and more diverse

also, also more playful, as digital tools can make them, for

instance, much more interactive. So I think that's turning media

experiences more mobile. But also watching videos and live

streams, we do most of it on our phones, much more than behind a

computer or laptop, I guess. Yeah, for sure. And I think also

a chat, I was also thinking of, we are, we're getting more used,

for instance, also to join a meeting, for instance, on the

go, I mean, if it's a very important meeting you might be,

it'd be important to sit behind your computer for an online

meeting. But some of the meetings that we're in, we're

also listening in while on the train, or we maybe join through

the chat or. So if you have a chat connected to your events. I

mean, it's not necessary that a person is actually there or

listens focused. So it could also be that you're just hearing

part of the event and add something to the chat. And then

if you use that chat further, in the event, it can feed the

discussion on a stage or between visitors, yeah.

And I wonder if it creates like a different comfort level. Like,

if you're in the space, maybe you wouldn't feel so able to put

your hand up and ask a certain question. And if there's that

kind of distance, like you could ask it in the chat anonymously.

I wonder if that will stay.

Yeah, we experience that a lot during events and also, yeah,

for like, questions to ask in person, there's also a limited

time. So we always get quite a lot of questions. And we ask, if

the time's up, we ask the speaker to go to the chat to

maybe answer the questions that are unanswered. And yeah, what I

find very interesting, which is also why we keep having the chat

also. Yeah, it's very important during our hybrid event, because

also people are discussing things together, or sometimes a

slide goes fast, and there's information on it that people

wanted to see, and then they ask. We've had once that someone

created a Dropbox where there was one slide shared among the

rest of the audience, because they wanted to see what's on

there. Or like references. There's really a discussion

there.

And creating community, I suppose, as well, and like co

creating access to the content.

Indeed yeah. And it's also more knowledge sharing. It's like,

what I really like, as an event organiser is that, yeah,

otherwise, it's more of a sending of information, and now

it's more, yeah, more about giving the audience more

facilities to have conversations with each other. It's also

knowledge sharing instead of just sending information.

And I wonder with the chat function, if it also operates to

show resonance. So if you're in a space and you're really in

agreement with something, or you're confused by something,

you don't know, necessarily, if other people in that place are

feeling the same way. So I do sometimes find it affirming

looking in the chat like, okay, that person also doesn't

understand it.

As an audience member? Yeah, I think it can be really affirming

for audience members.

Yeah, we also had, we did an experiment with a Twitch stream,

and there they have a lot of chat options where once one

example for instance, that you can send emotes, and they will

also appear over the screen. So they will appear.

Can I ask what an emote is? Like, emoji?

You know, just like an emoji, yeah, like a, like a visual

message or icon and in Twitch, you can make it so that they

appear on top of the the screen. But when we did that, I also

realised that as a physical, like on site audience, you have

a lot of ways of responding to what is being said. You can

like, next to raising your hand, you can also nod or you can

laugh, or you can, yeah, and there are a lot of like, more

nonverbal ways of responding to things and these emotes can

help, or give also the online audience that power of doing

that.

And I think the chat also enables you to discuss what is

said without disturbing. I mean, when you're in an audience I

cannot talk to you about what you're saying. But when you're

in chat, it's much easier to listen to what is said and at

the same time comment or discuss it or tag someone else for whom

it might be interesting.

Yeah, that's why we also always ask the onsite audience to join

the chat, because then they are part of the...

The discussion that's going, yeah.

Yeah. Like the poly-vocality, like, there's lots happening

simultaneously, and you don't necessarily have to hear someone

like whispering.

And people are used to doing things that, yeah, for sure.

For sure. I'm going to ask the last question to you, Esther. So

if you attend an onsite event, control of your time slot is in

the hands of the event organisers. But if you work with

a livestream, online visitors can simply press pause on the

event. Do you think this contributes to a kind of less

intense experience, that you remain in control of the time

yourself?

Yes, well, live experiences, in the sense that you're really

having this, the sense of it's happening now, and I have to

stay at the screen to follow it, for instance, or remain in the

audience to follow it. These are the most intense and engaging

experiences. So when you pause a livestream, or you walk away for

a bit, I mean, it's, it makes it more convenient. It's a

different experience, but it's less of a live experience. So in

that sense, for sure, it's less intense, I guess. Which is not

necessarily a bad thing. Because I mean, I think also something

to think about as organisers of hybrid events is, what is

necessary to do live? Or where's the strength in doing elements

live? And where is it perhaps even better to have people

organise their own time? To have people pause or listen or watch

something afterwards, or before? Yeah, so it's not necessary to

do everything live. But it does give that intense communal

sense.

Yeah, and I suppose, when we think about access, I feel like

some people find stuff a bit slow. So sometimes having the

mechanism to be able to like, listen back to the recording at

like 1.5 speed, enables them to access the information better.

So also, outside of intensity, I wonder if it can also, there

being different mechanisms, or speeds at which you can watch

something, can affect how far you can engage with the

information? Or you can kind of control how well you engage.

Yeah. You can choose more of your own path in that sense.

Yeah, delay it, or fasten it, or yeah, for sure. And also, I

think, maybe you could play with it. Perhaps you could give

people the choice to watch something, or to listen to

something, which also gives possibilities to different

people. Maybe even transcribe it so you can read it. Or you can

imagine giving access also to more people, and enabling people

to watch or listen or understand something in their own pace, in

their own way.

Yeah, and recognising that there are many ways people do that.

And I think

Same goes for the for the asking questions, as you say, not

everyone feels comfortable raising their hand in a public

space, so the chat can be a very good way for people to engage

I once had a conversation with someone who was mentioning that

there was a keynote speaker at an event. And there was also a

room next to that keynote speaker where you could just

listen to the talk, but not see the keynote speaker. And there

were still like, there was enough room in the room with the

keynote speaker, but still people chose for the option of

being in the side room because they wanted to work meanwhile,

and they don't feel comfortable with sitting behind their laptop

and in front of the speaker. So they decided to be in the other

room and just listen to the conversation. So yeah, it's

really that people have different wishes of how to

experience an event. And I think, yeah, adding the hybrid

layer can offer these different options of following.

And then I think my argument would be, be aware, when you do

this, of the powers of these different forms. So design it

purposefully. And think about how people would experience this

in these different ways.

Yeah, and the intentionality of like, what do you want your

audience or audiences to get? And how do you best respond to

their needs? So as we wrap up today's episode, I'd love to

hear a quick takeaway from both of you on the theme of time and

space. But before we dive into that, we have another case

study.

For this case study interlude, we want to share Piazza Virtuale

by the Van Gogh TV art collective. Let's step back to

1992, a time when television was about to undergo a peculiar

experiment during Documenta IX, called Piazza Virtuale. This

avant garde initiative was spearheaded by the Van Gogh TV

art collective, comprised of Mike Hentz, Karel Dudesek,

Benjamin Heidersberger, and Salvatore Vanasco, a group not

afraid to challenge the norms of broadcasting. Here's the twist.

No presenters, no announcements and definitely no structured

show. Instead, a simple prompt on the TV screen provides a

phone number. Dial it and you might find yourself on air,

speaking to the world. Up to four random callers perform a

peculiar community, engaging in conversations, delivering

impromptu speeches, or, in some cases, making rather unexpected

noises until they were abruptly cut off. The 100-day experiment

invited attendees to actively participate. Armed with

videophones and cameras, visitors could transmit

themselves to the so called audience. This audience wasn't

passive. It was spread across micro studios called Piazzettas

in various cities across Germany, as well as in other

European countries, and Japan. Within these Piazzettas,

visitors contributed actively, discussing, creating artworks,

and even adjusting the camera's position in Kassel. Piazza

Virtuale, in its own way, predicted the characteristics of

contemporary social media, ushering in a new era where

audience participation became integral. Beyond being an art

project, Piazza Virtuale represented a subtle shift in

the media landscape. It was a patchwork of interactions, a

collection of voices transcending distances, and an

early exploration into the idea that broadcasting power could be

shared. In its departure from tradition, Piazza Virtuale

foreshadowed the participatory media landscape we're familiar

with today.

So Lillian, would you share with us your takeaway in relation to

the theme of time and space?

I think one difficult aspect of hybrid programming is to kind of

equalise the position of online and on site audience. I think

the takeaway is that it's important to acknowledge the

space where online people are joining from, yeah, to put

attention to it, to invest in it. And another one is that

decentralising your programme, usually it takes place on a main

stage, but when you decentralise your programme, it's also a more

balanced hybrid experience.

Brilliant, thank you. And Esther, what would be your

takeaway?

Also following the discussion or the conversation we had and

hearing again about the experiments from The Hmm I think

it's important as an event organiser to take into account

the senses people use to experience an event. So what are

you focusing on? Which senses do you trigger, and do you use? And

another thing would be that, something that didn't come

forward in this discussion, I think, but it's very important

to incorporate the media use of people, without, besides what

you organise yourself, so you're organising an event, maybe a

live stream, maybe a chat, maybe a podcast or whatever. But

people are also moving through other media environments. So in

my studies, I saw people going on Instagram, Facebook, these

are the environments where stuff is held, and where people

produce stuff themselves, which as organisers you often tend to

forget, because you're busy with what you are dealing with, with

what you are designing, but it's a nice way of giving people a

participatory role in the event. So it's always good also to see

what people themselves make and do through media, at your

events.

Brilliant. Thank you.

Thank you for hanging out with us on this hybrid ride. You can

now continue with full focus with folding laundry, biking to

a meeting or if you're still here with us from bed, you can

go to sleep. If you're still vibing with the in-between

space, more episodes of The Inbetween Machine are either

already in your podcast app, or on their way. Have you binged

all episodes already, or want to learn more about the

possibilities, potentialities and pitfalls of our in-between

environment? Then go to toolkitfortheinbetween.com