1 00:00:05,850 --> 00:00:06,660 The in-between 2 00:00:13,020 --> 00:00:14,190 The Inbetween Machine 3 00:00:16,590 --> 00:00:20,460 Welcome to The Inbetween Machine, the podcast that adds a 4 00:00:20,460 --> 00:00:24,450 touch of excitement to your hybrid lifestyle. Chances are 5 00:00:24,570 --> 00:00:28,470 you're tuning in while folding laundry, biking to a meeting or 6 00:00:28,470 --> 00:00:33,420 winding down for the night. Our goal is simple: to enhance your 7 00:00:33,420 --> 00:00:34,650 hybrid skills. 8 00:00:36,730 --> 00:00:41,350 My name is Sekai Makoni, and I'm a mixed black woman with Afro 9 00:00:41,350 --> 00:00:45,370 hair, a brown top and green trousers. I'm a cultural 10 00:00:45,370 --> 00:00:49,090 programmer, workshop facilitator, podcaster and 11 00:00:49,090 --> 00:00:53,020 artist. I'm your host, here to explore various aspects of 12 00:00:53,020 --> 00:00:57,430 hybrid living in each episode. Joining me are the people who 13 00:00:57,430 --> 00:01:01,090 created the Toolkit for the Inbetween and a special guest, 14 00:01:01,420 --> 00:01:04,990 all sharing insights into the world of hybrid experiences. 15 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:10,240 The Toolkit for the Inbetween is a website. It's like a creative 16 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,570 toolbox for hybrid events brought to you by members from 17 00:01:13,570 --> 00:01:17,800 three Dutch cultural institutions: The Hmm, a 18 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,010 platform and laboratory for internet and digital cultures; 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,660 affect lab, a research driven creative storytelling studio 20 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:31,180 focused on an inclusive future; and MU, a hybrid art house with 21 00:01:31,180 --> 00:01:35,020 interdisciplinary exhibitions and innovative education. 22 00:01:51,190 --> 00:01:54,520 In today's episode, we're delving into the role of time 23 00:01:54,550 --> 00:01:59,290 and space in hybrid gatherings. So grab a cup of tea or coffee, 24 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:03,820 settle in, and let's explore the fascinating intersection of the 25 00:02:03,820 --> 00:02:08,950 physical and digital in our lives. Welcome to The Inbetween 26 00:02:08,950 --> 00:02:09,670 Machine. 27 00:02:11,890 --> 00:02:12,820 The in-between. 28 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:20,520 When we're recording this, it's a calm December morning. It's 29 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,120 rainy outside and not as cold as we would like. And we're 30 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,050 downstairs in the basement of our Amsterdam podcast studio. 31 00:02:28,830 --> 00:02:32,760 Today I'm joined by toolkit member, Lilian Stolk, who is the 32 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,020 director of The Hmm. Welcome, Lilian. Could you give us a 33 00:02:37,020 --> 00:02:38,370 visual description of yourself? 34 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:43,590 Yes, I'm having brown hair and wearing it in a bun. I have a 35 00:02:43,590 --> 00:02:49,110 light skin. And I'm wearing a woollen sweater, which if you 36 00:02:49,110 --> 00:02:54,150 look closely has a print of a cake with the swirls and red 37 00:02:54,150 --> 00:02:54,690 dots. 38 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:00,090 Beautiful. And we have a special guest here in the studio. Esther 39 00:03:00,090 --> 00:03:03,090 Hammelburg. Could you give us a visual description of yourself 40 00:03:03,090 --> 00:03:03,510 as well? 41 00:03:03,690 --> 00:03:09,570 Sure, I have brown straight half long hair, white skin, brown 42 00:03:09,570 --> 00:03:13,920 eyes, wearing a black sweater, and a black skirt with flowers 43 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:14,280 on it. 44 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:16,590 Beautiful. Welcome both of you. 45 00:03:16,620 --> 00:03:17,250 Thank you. 46 00:03:17,820 --> 00:03:21,660 So today's focus themes are time and space, to look more 47 00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:24,960 specifically at how you can play with these themes during hybrid 48 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,400 events. You, Lillian, brought along two toolkit experiments, 49 00:03:29,820 --> 00:03:34,680 The Hmm @ 4 Locations and Weaving Spaces. Lillian, could 50 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,830 you give us a short description of both toolkit experiments? 51 00:03:37,750 --> 00:03:43,060 Yeah, sure. I start with The Hmm @ 4 Locations, because this was 52 00:03:39,070 --> 00:05:58,690 I have one at home actually. It's a very fresh scent. 53 00:03:43,090 --> 00:03:47,140 actually an event where the format was inspired by a 54 00:03:47,140 --> 00:03:53,230 conversation I had with Esther. Esther was mentioning football 55 00:03:53,230 --> 00:03:59,380 games as the perfect example of hybrid events because it can 56 00:03:59,380 --> 00:04:03,190 take on different in different locations. You can experience it 57 00:04:03,190 --> 00:04:07,090 in a football stadium, but you can also watch the game on the 58 00:04:07,090 --> 00:04:11,230 big screen in a town square or watch it at home with friends. 59 00:04:11,470 --> 00:04:15,880 And in all situations you still have the idea or the feeling 60 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:22,390 you're part of this live experiment or live event. And we 61 00:04:22,390 --> 00:04:27,100 got triggered by this idea that, yeah, an event can have 62 00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:31,300 different hubs. And we also wanted to see if we could take 63 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:35,770 it a bit further and even decentralise a programme even 64 00:04:35,770 --> 00:04:39,640 more. Because in the football game example, still like the 65 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:46,270 most, yeah, the dominant part of the programme is taking place in 66 00:04:46,270 --> 00:04:51,760 one location. And with The Hmm @ 4 Locations we actually had the 67 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,030 programme spread over four locations in four different 68 00:04:55,030 --> 00:04:59,200 cities in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam, Utrecht, Eindhoven 69 00:04:59,230 --> 00:05:03,580 and Rotterdam. It was an event with eight speakers. And in each 70 00:05:03,580 --> 00:05:08,590 of the locations, there were two speakers physically present. And 71 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,750 the other speakers could be followed via livestream. And 72 00:05:13,750 --> 00:05:19,840 there were different ways how we tried to stimulate connection 73 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:26,290 and exchange. And one aspect was that we created our own scent. 74 00:05:26,350 --> 00:05:29,830 And we launched it during this event, I also brought it with 75 00:05:29,830 --> 00:05:33,310 me. It's called The Hmmosphere and we created it together with 76 00:05:33,670 --> 00:05:38,500 scent artist Cesar Majorana. And together we tried to translate, 77 00:05:38,500 --> 00:05:42,310 we tried to make a scent for The Hmm. The Hmm is a platform for 78 00:05:42,310 --> 00:05:47,260 internet culture, but how does the internet actually smell? So 79 00:05:47,260 --> 00:05:53,200 yeah, we tried to... I can show you? Or show you... 80 00:05:58,750 --> 00:06:03,190 Yeah, it's quite fresh. There's a lot of ozone in it, which is 81 00:06:03,190 --> 00:06:07,900 also the smell that you, that appears when you're printing a 82 00:06:07,900 --> 00:06:09,040 lot, for instance. 83 00:06:09,820 --> 00:06:11,380 Smells a bit like warm cables. 84 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:19,130 Yeah, so we're spraying this scent in all the locations. So 85 00:06:19,370 --> 00:06:23,060 yeah, there was a bit of a common, at least a common smell 86 00:06:23,060 --> 00:06:28,580 in each location. And also people joining in from their own 87 00:06:28,580 --> 00:06:33,080 house, joining in online, they also could order the scent and 88 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,850 spray it. So that was one thing that was similar in each 89 00:06:37,850 --> 00:06:43,970 location. Then we also had that, like, all audiences were active 90 00:06:43,970 --> 00:06:49,370 in the chat. And the chat was also presented on the stage. So 91 00:06:49,580 --> 00:06:52,730 that's where everybody was having a conversation with each 92 00:06:52,730 --> 00:06:55,760 other. They could also, if they had a question to one of the 93 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,140 speakers, they could ask it via the chat. Yeah, so that was also 94 00:07:00,140 --> 00:07:04,970 a point where all the audience came together. And another 95 00:07:04,970 --> 00:07:08,510 element that we added was that we did a wave at the end of the 96 00:07:08,510 --> 00:07:13,490 event with all the locations. So we started in Amsterdam, then 97 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:16,550 Eindhoven, Utrecht and Rotterdam. 98 00:07:16,730 --> 00:07:19,370 And how did you coordinate that? You're were just like... 99 00:07:19,420 --> 00:07:23,020 Yeah, the audience could see themselves via the live stream. 100 00:07:23,020 --> 00:07:27,880 So we, we, yeah, they responded to each other. Yeah, so that was 101 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:33,160 a bit of a short description of the @ 4 Locations event and then 102 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,240 for the Weaving Spaces event... Yeah, it's easy, of course, to 103 00:07:37,330 --> 00:07:43,360 forget online audiences, because you don't see them. And it's 104 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,350 actually interesting to realise that everybody's joining from a 105 00:07:47,350 --> 00:07:51,190 different, in a different situation. With The Hmm events, 106 00:07:51,190 --> 00:07:55,480 we also often ask this question in the chat like, how are you 107 00:07:55,510 --> 00:07:58,960 experiencing this event? Are you sitting in a kitchen table, at 108 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:06,100 your kitchen table? Or are you on the way, and we also for the 109 00:08:06,130 --> 00:08:09,310 event Weaving Spaces - or the experiment Weaving Spaces - got 110 00:08:09,490 --> 00:08:14,320 inspired by the ritual of check-in moments, where you 111 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:18,910 start a meeting with quickly sharing a personal like 112 00:08:18,910 --> 00:08:23,290 situation you're in or what is also forming your experience, I 113 00:08:23,290 --> 00:08:29,260 think. This together with the habit of knitting and weaving to 114 00:08:29,290 --> 00:08:34,060 come together and share stories, led to the Weaving Spaces 115 00:08:34,090 --> 00:08:38,680 experiment where we start an event with some questions that 116 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:43,870 we asked the audience. Can be questions from what surface is 117 00:08:43,870 --> 00:08:49,960 underneath your foot at the moment, to how do you feel at 118 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,250 the moment? People answer that via a special web app that we 119 00:08:54,250 --> 00:08:59,380 developed and after answering all the questions, the answers 120 00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:03,700 are translated to abstract and less abstract data 121 00:09:03,700 --> 00:09:09,040 visualisations and we also have a shared pixel drawing that they 122 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:14,860 made. And people can see their personal pattern that they 123 00:09:14,860 --> 00:09:19,180 created after answering the questions, but we, as the event 124 00:09:19,180 --> 00:09:24,130 organisers, we see a pattern appear that combines all the 125 00:09:24,130 --> 00:09:27,790 answers and it's actually a pattern for a scarf that we 126 00:09:28,390 --> 00:09:33,580 knit. I also brought some experiments. This is a scarf 127 00:09:33,580 --> 00:09:40,930 that we printed for the The Hmm @ CBK Zuidoost. So here you see 128 00:09:40,930 --> 00:09:44,560 the pixel drawing that the visitors made together, everyone 129 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:50,350 can put five pixels in the canvas here. Also the little 130 00:09:50,860 --> 00:09:58,090 emotes, that was the most chosen emote of how people do feel at 131 00:09:58,090 --> 00:10:07,150 this event, and here, oh yeah, how people are describing their 132 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:11,740 feeling after the event or the experience of the event? Is it 133 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:20,200 hectic? Was it lonely? Exciting? And what is it, it's a bit 134 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,410 difficult to read... interesting. And then it's, it's 135 00:10:23,410 --> 00:10:28,990 stated like the most chosen option is the first one. And 136 00:10:28,990 --> 00:10:33,280 then the last, the lonely one is the last chosen option. So 137 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:38,500 that's, that's good. And it's also having the date and the 138 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:39,730 title of the event. 139 00:10:40,210 --> 00:10:45,430 I love it, and did people get to get a copy of the scarf? 140 00:10:45,450 --> 00:10:50,280 Yeah, that we didn't develop yet but we want to. And I think the, 141 00:10:50,370 --> 00:10:54,210 yeah, also the idea of that you create something together is 142 00:10:54,210 --> 00:10:58,080 also making, yeah, giving a bit of bonding between the different 143 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:04,860 audiences. Yeah, so, and indeed, if you can then also order the 144 00:11:04,860 --> 00:11:10,500 scarf and wear it yourself it's, yeah, adding to that idea. 145 00:11:11,370 --> 00:11:15,000 I really love, like the way you're describing all of the 146 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,810 events, it feels like there's a kind of, a playfulness to it, 147 00:11:18,810 --> 00:11:22,560 like the scent or the scarf. And even, in fact, like the 148 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:26,010 reference to football, right, watching it in person or on a 149 00:11:26,010 --> 00:11:29,250 screen, and then you kind of create a scarf, which also feels 150 00:11:29,250 --> 00:11:30,870 in some ways, like a reference to football. 151 00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:32,910 Oh, yeah, I didn't think about that. 152 00:11:34,110 --> 00:11:38,610 But I suppose I wonder what play and what, what role, like play 153 00:11:38,610 --> 00:11:42,210 or humour or lightness has in your approach to these hybrid 154 00:11:42,210 --> 00:11:42,510 events? 155 00:11:42,540 --> 00:11:48,210 Yeah. Yeah, that's really important. I think also, content 156 00:11:48,210 --> 00:11:52,020 wise, sometimes the topics are quite serious that we discuss 157 00:11:52,020 --> 00:11:58,170 and if we put a lot of humour and playfulness in it, it's also 158 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:03,870 easier to digest. And I think with these hybrid events, it's 159 00:12:04,050 --> 00:12:09,690 often... Yeah, we don't see so many fun experiments with hybrid 160 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,410 events, I think. It's often... people place a camera in space 161 00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:19,020 and it's just a livestream. It's also a very passive experience, 162 00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:25,980 like it's more becoming a TV broadcast. And I think, the most 163 00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:29,910 important element of an event is that it is interactive, and 164 00:12:29,940 --> 00:12:33,900 you're part of something. So I think adding the playfulness in 165 00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:37,080 it is also contributing to that. Otherwise, we could make a 166 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,910 podcast of the event. 167 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,510 And what were people's reactions like after the event? Like oh, 168 00:12:42,510 --> 00:12:45,360 this is so cool, there's a scent or I got a scarf. Like what did 169 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:46,410 people say who attended? 170 00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:47,490 Yeah, they love it. 171 00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:49,950 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 172 00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:55,440 I was a visitor, at one of the four locations and of some other 173 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,960 events. Yeah. So I bought the scent. I have it in my toilet at 174 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:01,170 home. 175 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,593 It's still there. Yeah, I really like it. It's really, I really 176 00:13:05,220 --> 00:13:05,250 [laughter] 177 00:13:09,664 --> 00:13:13,534 like the idea of using the senses and turning something 178 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:39,470 Like a memento. Brilliant. Thank you so much. And now we're going 179 00:13:13,605 --> 00:13:17,546 that you're studying into different senses. So the scent 180 00:13:17,616 --> 00:13:21,768 turning the internet into a smell. Yeah, I really liked the 181 00:13:21,839 --> 00:13:26,202 notion, it broadens your scope, your way of thinking about how 182 00:13:26,272 --> 00:13:30,706 the internet works, or what this means to the world. And it's a 183 00:13:30,776 --> 00:13:33,240 nice artefact to have in your home. 184 00:13:39,470 --> 00:13:43,070 to hear about a historical case study. So let's take a listen. 185 00:13:45,250 --> 00:13:49,300 For this case study interlude, we want to share The World in 24 186 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:53,500 Hours by Robert Adrien. Transporting ourselves to the 187 00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:58,630 year 1982, we find EUnet making its debut, marking the early 188 00:13:58,630 --> 00:14:02,230 days of the European internet. Back then a realm mostly 189 00:14:02,230 --> 00:14:06,040 reserved for scientists and researchers. Amidst this 190 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,910 backdrop, Robert Adrian introduces The World in 24 Hours 191 00:14:09,940 --> 00:14:14,140 at the Ars Electronica Festival on September 27th. The project 192 00:14:14,140 --> 00:14:17,530 is a telecommunication venture linking Linz, the host city of 193 00:14:17,530 --> 00:14:21,460 the festival, with 15 cities worldwide. Each city was given a 194 00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:25,660 specific time slot based on its timezone. From midday on 195 00:14:25,660 --> 00:14:30,610 September 27th, to midday on September 28th, artistic groups 196 00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:33,490 in each city connected with Adrian's team in Linz through a 197 00:14:33,490 --> 00:14:38,680 variety of channels: computer terminals, telephones, fax, and 198 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,090 slow scan TV. The team in Linz contacted each location at 12 199 00:14:43,090 --> 00:14:46,090 o'clock in their respective timezone. They then had one hour 200 00:14:46,090 --> 00:14:50,200 to exchange material with the Linz team. Adrian envisioned the 201 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,930 project as setting a precedent for using telecommunication 202 00:14:52,930 --> 00:14:56,440 networks in global artistic collaboration. The deliberate 203 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,110 choice of accessible mediums encouraged widespread 204 00:14:59,110 --> 00:15:03,310 participation. The World in 24 Hours embodied mid-deep 205 00:15:03,310 --> 00:15:06,790 hybridity, utilising diverse telecommunication methods to 206 00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:10,720 connect artists globally in real time. Linz acted as a central 207 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,230 hub, facilitating collaboration despite the physical distance. 208 00:15:14,650 --> 00:15:17,530 Although remote teams weren't directly connected, their 209 00:15:17,530 --> 00:15:21,460 participation wove them into the 24 hour narrative, fostering a 210 00:15:21,460 --> 00:15:24,760 sense of connection among participants. This 211 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,390 telecommunication endeavour wasn't just about technology, it 212 00:15:28,390 --> 00:15:32,860 was also a human story. As the clock ticked, a shared creative 213 00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:37,480 space emerged, transcending physical boundaries. The 214 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,270 artworks became more than conduits, they transformed into 215 00:15:40,270 --> 00:15:43,870 vessels for shared creativity, bringing tangible artworks to 216 00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:49,360 life in Linz. In the quiet dance of global connectivity, The 217 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,390 World in 24 Hours stands as a testament to the potential of 218 00:15:52,390 --> 00:15:55,780 technology, reminding us that even in the vastness of 219 00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:59,050 cyberspace, the heartbeat of human creativity remains 220 00:15:59,050 --> 00:15:59,980 steadfast. 221 00:16:01,510 --> 00:16:05,860 Esther Hammelburg is an expert on live experiences and hybrid 222 00:16:05,860 --> 00:16:10,330 events. She claims that every event is in fact hybrid. We are 223 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,560 always in both physical and media environment at the same 224 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,580 time. She drew this conclusion from her PhD research, which 225 00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:22,750 consisted of extensive fieldwork, speaking to 379 226 00:16:22,750 --> 00:16:26,140 people, and gathering large datasets from social media 227 00:16:26,140 --> 00:16:30,070 platforms, with which she shows how media use shaped the way we 228 00:16:30,070 --> 00:16:34,030 experience being there live. Welcome, Esther. 229 00:16:34,060 --> 00:16:34,780 Thank you very much. 230 00:16:35,530 --> 00:16:40,210 So I was wondering: Is recording this podcast today also a hybrid 231 00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:41,380 experience for you? 232 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,430 I think, yeah, every experience is hybrid. I think for us, for 233 00:16:46,430 --> 00:16:50,240 us itself it's less hybrid in the sense that we're very 234 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:56,240 focused at what we're doing at this moment. We are not, our 235 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,810 voices are going to be in a lot of different media environments 236 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,010 afterwards. There's other people on the other side of the wall, 237 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,480 looking at us and listening to us. So we're aware of that. So 238 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,450 in that sense, you might call it hybrid. But I think it's more a 239 00:17:11,450 --> 00:17:14,510 hybrid experience for the listener, because you'll listen 240 00:17:14,510 --> 00:17:19,220 to this, as you said, in your introduction, perhaps when 241 00:17:19,220 --> 00:17:24,410 you're in bed before sleep, or biking somewhere or on the train 242 00:17:24,410 --> 00:17:31,340 or making dinner. And I believe that experiences differ also, 243 00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:34,460 because these physical environments shape the way you 244 00:17:34,460 --> 00:17:37,220 experience something. So for the listener, for sure, it's a very- 245 00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:40,700 I think podcasts is one of the most hybrid experiences 246 00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:44,570 actually, because we move along the physical world, while 247 00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:46,310 listening to this media text. 248 00:17:46,930 --> 00:17:51,580 Brilliant. So according to your research, we are here together 249 00:17:51,580 --> 00:17:56,770 now is the crux of every event. And maybe we can unravel this 250 00:17:56,770 --> 00:18:01,090 for hybrid events. And the here for an onsite event is the event 251 00:18:01,090 --> 00:18:04,900 space. But maybe it includes also the travel to an event 252 00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:10,810 space. For online visitors, the here is their computer, and also 253 00:18:10,810 --> 00:18:14,590 the room where they are watching from. So what does space 254 00:18:14,590 --> 00:18:18,550 contribute to an event? And how can we utilise this for a hybrid 255 00:18:18,550 --> 00:18:19,630 experience? 256 00:18:19,870 --> 00:18:26,350 Yeah, yeah, so in my PhD research, I studied liveness. 257 00:18:26,770 --> 00:18:31,930 And said: a live experience makes- is being here, now, 258 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,270 together. So it's the space, the time and a social context. And 259 00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:41,440 for space, what I studied was people who were at events, so 260 00:18:41,470 --> 00:18:44,980 often festivals that were organised in a physical space, 261 00:18:45,220 --> 00:18:47,980 but also, for instance, the Dutch fundraiser Serious 262 00:18:47,980 --> 00:18:52,900 Request, which is a multimedia or a cross-medial format, which 263 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:56,890 has a studio where people can go to on a town square, but it's 264 00:18:56,890 --> 00:18:59,890 also a radio programme. It's also life on television, it's a 265 00:18:59,890 --> 00:19:05,560 live stream. So that is very, has very different spaces and 266 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,300 places to experience the event in. And what I noticed is that 267 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:14,890 visitors, even though they might be physically there at a 268 00:19:14,890 --> 00:19:18,730 festival, they are also at the same time in various media 269 00:19:18,730 --> 00:19:22,750 environment. So you are also on Instagram, for instance, I've 270 00:19:22,750 --> 00:19:26,290 spoken to people who... one of my events that I researched was 271 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,360 the Pride in Amsterdam. I've spoken to people who were on a 272 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,230 boat in the Canal Parade, which is the central event of the 273 00:19:35,230 --> 00:19:38,410 Pride so you would say that's the most there you can be, 274 00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:42,940 saying that if they wouldn't have any photograph or social 275 00:19:42,940 --> 00:19:47,470 media posts from that, they would feel less there. So being 276 00:19:47,470 --> 00:19:52,450 there on Instagram or on a photo even in your own phone or 277 00:19:52,450 --> 00:19:57,250 printed or on your roll or whatever, has a role in 278 00:19:57,250 --> 00:20:01,960 affirming where you are, your sense of being there. So I think 279 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,640 that's very central to hybrid events. And you can play with 280 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,570 this, in the sense, well for instance, organising an event in 281 00:20:10,570 --> 00:20:14,740 different locations. But I think event organisers in general, as 282 00:20:14,740 --> 00:20:18,040 Lilian said before, when we speak about hybrid events, 283 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:23,230 especially after COVID, what we got accustomed to is doing an 284 00:20:23,230 --> 00:20:27,370 event as we used to do and then putting a webcam or a camera on 285 00:20:27,370 --> 00:20:31,450 it and doing a live stream, which is a bit boring, I think, 286 00:20:31,450 --> 00:20:34,390 because often, I mean, sometimes it's interesting, if it's talk, 287 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:39,010 if somebody is just doing like a talk, this can work very well. 288 00:20:39,460 --> 00:20:42,430 I've seen this for conferences, it's sometimes a very good 289 00:20:42,850 --> 00:20:48,040 alternative to travelling the world to see someone speak. But 290 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,800 I think there's so much more possible for media makers, for 291 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,720 event organisers, if you think about, for instance, if you make 292 00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:58,720 an audio track to your event and other people- and people can 293 00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:01,660 listen to this beforehand, or afterwards, or on their way 294 00:21:01,660 --> 00:21:06,730 there, perhaps, and include the spaces that people are in at 295 00:21:06,730 --> 00:21:09,430 other times, not only when physically at the event. 296 00:21:10,290 --> 00:21:14,370 I also think one interesting thing you brought up, or that 297 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:19,920 you told me earlier was the example of Serious Request. And 298 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,300 that that was a, is a recurring event always taking place during 299 00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:28,170 the Christmas period. And also when people were experiencing 300 00:21:28,170 --> 00:21:33,600 that event on the television, it was very important for them that 301 00:21:33,990 --> 00:21:37,950 their house was decorated with Christmas decoration. 302 00:21:38,290 --> 00:21:41,920 Yeah, people, so... So this is a very- because it's on TV, it's 303 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,520 every year, so people get used to it. There's quite a lot of 304 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:52,300 fans of the event. And a lot of people connection is really with 305 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:56,080 their home experience watching it, so not so much the event on 306 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,500 a town square where the Glass House Studio is, but their home, 307 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:02,980 where the dog is lying down and the Christmas tree for a lot of 308 00:22:02,980 --> 00:22:07,030 people at that time is standing or they have like candles 309 00:22:07,030 --> 00:22:10,630 burning because it's dark outside. So the cosiness of the 310 00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:15,340 house, you can make your house cosy in December, plays a large 311 00:22:15,340 --> 00:22:18,910 role in the experience of Serious Request. And even so 312 00:22:18,910 --> 00:22:22,210 that you mentioned before about the football game, there's one 313 00:22:22,210 --> 00:22:26,200 physical main event where it is, but I think maybe similar to a 314 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,920 football game, when you're at a stadium, you don't always see 315 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,660 the best shots of what happens. And in Serious Request, this is 316 00:22:34,660 --> 00:22:38,830 really something, I interviewed people who were, who followed it 317 00:22:38,860 --> 00:22:41,770 at a distance through television or live streams and people who 318 00:22:41,770 --> 00:22:47,290 were there. And people who did both. And people, I've spoken to 319 00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:51,100 a lot of people who said that it's a very different experience 320 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:53,800 being at the Glass House Studio where you're very close by where 321 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,400 it happens, you see the radio DJs, you see artists perform. 322 00:22:57,820 --> 00:23:01,450 It's a party. So you have all of the senses of being in a crowd 323 00:23:01,450 --> 00:23:05,470 and an event like that. But it's very difficult to follow the 324 00:23:05,470 --> 00:23:09,550 main event, because the main event is a recording of a radio 325 00:23:09,550 --> 00:23:13,060 show, a conversation, which you can hear best on the radio or 326 00:23:13,060 --> 00:23:18,910 see best on television. So even people would sometimes rewatch 327 00:23:18,970 --> 00:23:23,980 the parts of the programme after they were there. Because they 328 00:23:23,980 --> 00:23:26,440 felt they missed something and they wanted to see like the 329 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,510 closeup of the DJ who will get emotional or stuff like that. So 330 00:23:31,510 --> 00:23:35,290 I think that's also, if you're organising hybrid events, if you 331 00:23:35,290 --> 00:23:39,010 just put a webcam on it, it's perhaps not the perfect 332 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,000 experience. I think it's important to understand that 333 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,620 it's not a replacement of physically, or not per se a 334 00:23:47,620 --> 00:23:51,970 replacement of physically being there, but another form of 335 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,170 experiencing the event. And if you organise it like this, then 336 00:23:56,170 --> 00:23:59,590 you can organise very rich hybrid events. 337 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,330 So we often think of online visitors as being at home behind 338 00:24:04,330 --> 00:24:08,110 their laptops. But mobile tech is getting so much better that 339 00:24:08,110 --> 00:24:12,670 we may start thinking of online as being actually mobile, as in 340 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,500 moving around. How do you think this may enhance online and/or 341 00:24:17,530 --> 00:24:19,480 on site experiences? 342 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,450 Yeah, I think for sure everything is becoming more 343 00:24:22,450 --> 00:24:26,770 mobile. Also with Serious Request. I mean, I did my field 344 00:24:26,770 --> 00:24:31,780 research for that in 2017, I think, in December 2017. So 345 00:24:31,780 --> 00:24:35,950 that's a long time ago already. Even then people said they were 346 00:24:35,950 --> 00:24:40,450 watching the live stream on the go or listening, it's also live 347 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,020 broadcast on the radio. So listening in the car or at work 348 00:24:44,050 --> 00:24:49,060 was a large part of the event. And I think we can use this 349 00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:53,560 also, and here space and time connects a bit in the sense that 350 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,610 I think one aspect is the live event as it is happening at that 351 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,140 moment, but you can also have parts of it that you have, that 352 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:06,520 you listen to or watch beforehand or afterwards. And 353 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,570 especially then, I mean that you can do that anywhere, I guess. 354 00:25:10,570 --> 00:25:15,940 So, podcasting, audio tracks are becoming more and more diverse 355 00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:20,800 also, also more playful, as digital tools can make them, for 356 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:26,470 instance, much more interactive. So I think that's turning media 357 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:30,490 experiences more mobile. But also watching videos and live 358 00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:35,350 streams, we do most of it on our phones, much more than behind a 359 00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:39,730 computer or laptop, I guess. Yeah, for sure. And I think also 360 00:25:39,730 --> 00:25:45,250 a chat, I was also thinking of, we are, we're getting more used, 361 00:25:45,250 --> 00:25:47,920 for instance, also to join a meeting, for instance, on the 362 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,190 go, I mean, if it's a very important meeting you might be, 363 00:25:51,310 --> 00:25:54,400 it'd be important to sit behind your computer for an online 364 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,440 meeting. But some of the meetings that we're in, we're 365 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,760 also listening in while on the train, or we maybe join through 366 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,840 the chat or. So if you have a chat connected to your events. I 367 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,670 mean, it's not necessary that a person is actually there or 368 00:26:10,750 --> 00:26:14,200 listens focused. So it could also be that you're just hearing 369 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,780 part of the event and add something to the chat. And then 370 00:26:17,050 --> 00:26:20,110 if you use that chat further, in the event, it can feed the 371 00:26:20,110 --> 00:26:25,540 discussion on a stage or between visitors, yeah. 372 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:28,420 And I wonder if it creates like a different comfort level. Like, 373 00:26:28,450 --> 00:26:32,320 if you're in the space, maybe you wouldn't feel so able to put 374 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,870 your hand up and ask a certain question. And if there's that 375 00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:38,440 kind of distance, like you could ask it in the chat anonymously. 376 00:26:38,530 --> 00:26:39,640 I wonder if that will stay. 377 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,300 Yeah, we experience that a lot during events and also, yeah, 378 00:26:45,330 --> 00:26:50,160 for like, questions to ask in person, there's also a limited 379 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,320 time. So we always get quite a lot of questions. And we ask, if 380 00:26:55,770 --> 00:27:00,330 the time's up, we ask the speaker to go to the chat to 381 00:27:00,330 --> 00:27:05,670 maybe answer the questions that are unanswered. And yeah, what I 382 00:27:05,730 --> 00:27:11,580 find very interesting, which is also why we keep having the chat 383 00:27:11,610 --> 00:27:15,870 also. Yeah, it's very important during our hybrid event, because 384 00:27:15,990 --> 00:27:19,500 also people are discussing things together, or sometimes a 385 00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:22,830 slide goes fast, and there's information on it that people 386 00:27:22,830 --> 00:27:27,270 wanted to see, and then they ask. We've had once that someone 387 00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:32,940 created a Dropbox where there was one slide shared among the 388 00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:35,490 rest of the audience, because they wanted to see what's on 389 00:27:35,490 --> 00:27:39,570 there. Or like references. There's really a discussion 390 00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:41,610 there. 391 00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:45,300 And creating community, I suppose, as well, and like co 392 00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:47,670 creating access to the content. 393 00:27:47,820 --> 00:27:51,720 Indeed yeah. And it's also more knowledge sharing. It's like, 394 00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:56,250 what I really like, as an event organiser is that, yeah, 395 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,610 otherwise, it's more of a sending of information, and now 396 00:27:59,670 --> 00:28:05,460 it's more, yeah, more about giving the audience more 397 00:28:05,460 --> 00:28:08,700 facilities to have conversations with each other. It's also 398 00:28:08,910 --> 00:28:12,150 knowledge sharing instead of just sending information. 399 00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:16,380 And I wonder with the chat function, if it also operates to 400 00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:19,140 show resonance. So if you're in a space and you're really in 401 00:28:19,140 --> 00:28:21,930 agreement with something, or you're confused by something, 402 00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:24,960 you don't know, necessarily, if other people in that place are 403 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,990 feeling the same way. So I do sometimes find it affirming 404 00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:30,000 looking in the chat like, okay, that person also doesn't 405 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,670 understand it. 406 00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:38,310 As an audience member? Yeah, I think it can be really affirming 407 00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:39,510 for audience members. 408 00:28:39,570 --> 00:28:46,170 Yeah, we also had, we did an experiment with a Twitch stream, 409 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:51,360 and there they have a lot of chat options where once one 410 00:28:51,390 --> 00:28:54,900 example for instance, that you can send emotes, and they will 411 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:59,490 also appear over the screen. So they will appear. 412 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:00,930 Can I ask what an emote is? Like, emoji? 413 00:29:00,930 --> 00:29:04,350 You know, just like an emoji, yeah, like a, like a visual 414 00:29:04,650 --> 00:29:10,680 message or icon and in Twitch, you can make it so that they 415 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:17,100 appear on top of the the screen. But when we did that, I also 416 00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:23,370 realised that as a physical, like on site audience, you have 417 00:29:23,370 --> 00:29:28,440 a lot of ways of responding to what is being said. You can 418 00:29:28,530 --> 00:29:33,240 like, next to raising your hand, you can also nod or you can 419 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,750 laugh, or you can, yeah, and there are a lot of like, more 420 00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:41,250 nonverbal ways of responding to things and these emotes can 421 00:29:41,250 --> 00:29:44,940 help, or give also the online audience that power of doing 422 00:29:44,940 --> 00:29:45,360 that. 423 00:29:46,380 --> 00:29:50,820 And I think the chat also enables you to discuss what is 424 00:29:50,820 --> 00:29:54,990 said without disturbing. I mean, when you're in an audience I 425 00:29:54,990 --> 00:29:58,560 cannot talk to you about what you're saying. But when you're 426 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,920 in chat, it's much easier to listen to what is said and at 427 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,810 the same time comment or discuss it or tag someone else for whom 428 00:30:06,810 --> 00:30:08,040 it might be interesting. 429 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,300 Yeah, that's why we also always ask the onsite audience to join 430 00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:14,340 the chat, because then they are part of the... 431 00:30:15,210 --> 00:30:17,070 The discussion that's going, yeah. 432 00:30:17,460 --> 00:30:20,550 Yeah. Like the poly-vocality, like, there's lots happening 433 00:30:20,550 --> 00:30:22,800 simultaneously, and you don't necessarily have to hear someone 434 00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:23,790 like whispering. 435 00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:27,240 And people are used to doing things that, yeah, for sure. 436 00:30:28,170 --> 00:30:33,510 For sure. I'm going to ask the last question to you, Esther. So 437 00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:37,590 if you attend an onsite event, control of your time slot is in 438 00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:40,710 the hands of the event organisers. But if you work with 439 00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:44,280 a livestream, online visitors can simply press pause on the 440 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,370 event. Do you think this contributes to a kind of less 441 00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:51,540 intense experience, that you remain in control of the time 442 00:30:51,540 --> 00:30:52,320 yourself? 443 00:30:53,370 --> 00:30:57,210 Yes, well, live experiences, in the sense that you're really 444 00:30:57,210 --> 00:31:00,540 having this, the sense of it's happening now, and I have to 445 00:31:00,750 --> 00:31:04,320 stay at the screen to follow it, for instance, or remain in the 446 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,270 audience to follow it. These are the most intense and engaging 447 00:31:09,450 --> 00:31:14,100 experiences. So when you pause a livestream, or you walk away for 448 00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:17,580 a bit, I mean, it's, it makes it more convenient. It's a 449 00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:20,730 different experience, but it's less of a live experience. So in 450 00:31:20,730 --> 00:31:26,970 that sense, for sure, it's less intense, I guess. Which is not 451 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,950 necessarily a bad thing. Because I mean, I think also something 452 00:31:31,950 --> 00:31:37,350 to think about as organisers of hybrid events is, what is 453 00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:41,760 necessary to do live? Or where's the strength in doing elements 454 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,870 live? And where is it perhaps even better to have people 455 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,370 organise their own time? To have people pause or listen or watch 456 00:31:50,370 --> 00:31:55,230 something afterwards, or before? Yeah, so it's not necessary to 457 00:31:55,230 --> 00:31:59,520 do everything live. But it does give that intense communal 458 00:32:00,390 --> 00:32:01,410 sense. 459 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,660 Yeah, and I suppose, when we think about access, I feel like 460 00:32:06,250 --> 00:32:11,500 some people find stuff a bit slow. So sometimes having the 461 00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:14,110 mechanism to be able to like, listen back to the recording at 462 00:32:14,110 --> 00:32:20,230 like 1.5 speed, enables them to access the information better. 463 00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:25,210 So also, outside of intensity, I wonder if it can also, there 464 00:32:25,210 --> 00:32:28,180 being different mechanisms, or speeds at which you can watch 465 00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:31,960 something, can affect how far you can engage with the 466 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,260 information? Or you can kind of control how well you engage. 467 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,090 Yeah. You can choose more of your own path in that sense. 468 00:32:38,930 --> 00:32:44,030 Yeah, delay it, or fasten it, or yeah, for sure. And also, I 469 00:32:44,030 --> 00:32:47,030 think, maybe you could play with it. Perhaps you could give 470 00:32:47,030 --> 00:32:49,490 people the choice to watch something, or to listen to 471 00:32:49,490 --> 00:32:52,610 something, which also gives possibilities to different 472 00:32:52,610 --> 00:32:58,100 people. Maybe even transcribe it so you can read it. Or you can 473 00:32:58,130 --> 00:33:02,900 imagine giving access also to more people, and enabling people 474 00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:07,160 to watch or listen or understand something in their own pace, in 475 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:07,760 their own way. 476 00:33:07,910 --> 00:33:11,030 Yeah, and recognising that there are many ways people do that. 477 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:11,520 And I think 478 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,390 Same goes for the for the asking questions, as you say, not 479 00:33:14,390 --> 00:33:17,690 everyone feels comfortable raising their hand in a public 480 00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:22,760 space, so the chat can be a very good way for people to engage 481 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,440 I once had a conversation with someone who was mentioning that 482 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,610 there was a keynote speaker at an event. And there was also a 483 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,630 room next to that keynote speaker where you could just 484 00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:41,090 listen to the talk, but not see the keynote speaker. And there 485 00:33:41,090 --> 00:33:44,060 were still like, there was enough room in the room with the 486 00:33:44,060 --> 00:33:46,850 keynote speaker, but still people chose for the option of 487 00:33:47,060 --> 00:33:52,160 being in the side room because they wanted to work meanwhile, 488 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,170 and they don't feel comfortable with sitting behind their laptop 489 00:33:57,170 --> 00:34:00,680 and in front of the speaker. So they decided to be in the other 490 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,880 room and just listen to the conversation. So yeah, it's 491 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,310 really that people have different wishes of how to 492 00:34:07,310 --> 00:34:11,450 experience an event. And I think, yeah, adding the hybrid 493 00:34:11,450 --> 00:34:16,700 layer can offer these different options of following. 494 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,790 And then I think my argument would be, be aware, when you do 495 00:34:21,790 --> 00:34:27,370 this, of the powers of these different forms. So design it 496 00:34:27,370 --> 00:34:31,750 purposefully. And think about how people would experience this 497 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,250 in these different ways. 498 00:34:33,310 --> 00:34:35,680 Yeah, and the intentionality of like, what do you want your 499 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,430 audience or audiences to get? And how do you best respond to 500 00:34:39,430 --> 00:34:43,840 their needs? So as we wrap up today's episode, I'd love to 501 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,650 hear a quick takeaway from both of you on the theme of time and 502 00:34:47,650 --> 00:34:51,520 space. But before we dive into that, we have another case 503 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:52,060 study. 504 00:34:53,530 --> 00:34:57,460 For this case study interlude, we want to share Piazza Virtuale 505 00:34:57,940 --> 00:35:02,080 by the Van Gogh TV art collective. Let's step back to 506 00:35:02,110 --> 00:35:06,700 1992, a time when television was about to undergo a peculiar 507 00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:11,350 experiment during Documenta IX, called Piazza Virtuale. This 508 00:35:11,410 --> 00:35:14,980 avant garde initiative was spearheaded by the Van Gogh TV 509 00:35:14,980 --> 00:35:19,030 art collective, comprised of Mike Hentz, Karel Dudesek, 510 00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:23,380 Benjamin Heidersberger, and Salvatore Vanasco, a group not 511 00:35:23,380 --> 00:35:27,850 afraid to challenge the norms of broadcasting. Here's the twist. 512 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,720 No presenters, no announcements and definitely no structured 513 00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:35,440 show. Instead, a simple prompt on the TV screen provides a 514 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,430 phone number. Dial it and you might find yourself on air, 515 00:35:39,610 --> 00:35:43,900 speaking to the world. Up to four random callers perform a 516 00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:47,920 peculiar community, engaging in conversations, delivering 517 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:52,060 impromptu speeches, or, in some cases, making rather unexpected 518 00:35:52,060 --> 00:35:56,080 noises until they were abruptly cut off. The 100-day experiment 519 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,740 invited attendees to actively participate. Armed with 520 00:35:59,740 --> 00:36:02,680 videophones and cameras, visitors could transmit 521 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,640 themselves to the so called audience. This audience wasn't 522 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,140 passive. It was spread across micro studios called Piazzettas 523 00:36:11,170 --> 00:36:14,110 in various cities across Germany, as well as in other 524 00:36:14,110 --> 00:36:18,310 European countries, and Japan. Within these Piazzettas, 525 00:36:18,340 --> 00:36:22,750 visitors contributed actively, discussing, creating artworks, 526 00:36:22,810 --> 00:36:26,560 and even adjusting the camera's position in Kassel. Piazza 527 00:36:26,620 --> 00:36:30,100 Virtuale, in its own way, predicted the characteristics of 528 00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:33,790 contemporary social media, ushering in a new era where 529 00:36:33,790 --> 00:36:37,870 audience participation became integral. Beyond being an art 530 00:36:37,870 --> 00:36:41,230 project, Piazza Virtuale represented a subtle shift in 531 00:36:41,230 --> 00:36:44,950 the media landscape. It was a patchwork of interactions, a 532 00:36:44,950 --> 00:36:47,740 collection of voices transcending distances, and an 533 00:36:47,770 --> 00:36:50,860 early exploration into the idea that broadcasting power could be 534 00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:54,700 shared. In its departure from tradition, Piazza Virtuale 535 00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:57,760 foreshadowed the participatory media landscape we're familiar 536 00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:58,510 with today. 537 00:37:00,450 --> 00:37:04,740 So Lillian, would you share with us your takeaway in relation to 538 00:37:04,740 --> 00:37:06,720 the theme of time and space? 539 00:37:07,870 --> 00:37:14,950 I think one difficult aspect of hybrid programming is to kind of 540 00:37:15,070 --> 00:37:21,670 equalise the position of online and on site audience. I think 541 00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:25,600 the takeaway is that it's important to acknowledge the 542 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,130 space where online people are joining from, yeah, to put 543 00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:35,710 attention to it, to invest in it. And another one is that 544 00:37:36,070 --> 00:37:40,960 decentralising your programme, usually it takes place on a main 545 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:46,750 stage, but when you decentralise your programme, it's also a more 546 00:37:46,750 --> 00:37:48,670 balanced hybrid experience. 547 00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:52,570 Brilliant, thank you. And Esther, what would be your 548 00:37:52,570 --> 00:37:53,200 takeaway? 549 00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:57,620 Also following the discussion or the conversation we had and 550 00:37:57,620 --> 00:38:00,260 hearing again about the experiments from The Hmm I think 551 00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:04,340 it's important as an event organiser to take into account 552 00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:10,220 the senses people use to experience an event. So what are 553 00:38:10,220 --> 00:38:16,370 you focusing on? Which senses do you trigger, and do you use? And 554 00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:20,060 another thing would be that, something that didn't come 555 00:38:20,060 --> 00:38:23,510 forward in this discussion, I think, but it's very important 556 00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:30,500 to incorporate the media use of people, without, besides what 557 00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:33,380 you organise yourself, so you're organising an event, maybe a 558 00:38:33,380 --> 00:38:36,950 live stream, maybe a chat, maybe a podcast or whatever. But 559 00:38:37,580 --> 00:38:41,150 people are also moving through other media environments. So in 560 00:38:41,150 --> 00:38:45,770 my studies, I saw people going on Instagram, Facebook, these 561 00:38:45,770 --> 00:38:48,410 are the environments where stuff is held, and where people 562 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:53,300 produce stuff themselves, which as organisers you often tend to 563 00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,640 forget, because you're busy with what you are dealing with, with 564 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,820 what you are designing, but it's a nice way of giving people a 565 00:38:58,820 --> 00:39:03,470 participatory role in the event. So it's always good also to see 566 00:39:03,470 --> 00:39:07,640 what people themselves make and do through media, at your 567 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:08,300 events. 568 00:39:09,050 --> 00:39:10,430 Brilliant. Thank you. 569 00:39:11,180 --> 00:39:14,390 Thank you for hanging out with us on this hybrid ride. You can 570 00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:18,560 now continue with full focus with folding laundry, biking to 571 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,650 a meeting or if you're still here with us from bed, you can 572 00:39:21,650 --> 00:39:24,980 go to sleep. If you're still vibing with the in-between 573 00:39:24,980 --> 00:39:28,730 space, more episodes of The Inbetween Machine are either 574 00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:33,020 already in your podcast app, or on their way. Have you binged 575 00:39:33,020 --> 00:39:36,110 all episodes already, or want to learn more about the 576 00:39:36,110 --> 00:39:40,430 possibilities, potentialities and pitfalls of our in-between 577 00:39:40,430 --> 00:39:43,970 environment? Then go to toolkitfortheinbetween.com